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Modern Science: Breakthrough or taboo?

Posted Aug. 28, 2011 by Fallensoul in Open

commented on March 22, 2012
by KYRANI

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There is no doubt that modern science has made enormous advancements that have significantly improved all aspects of our lives in amazing ways. From Technological advancements to breakthroughs in medical science. I just read promising research in the fight against cancer: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100610141042.htm).

Yet despite our "advancement", somehow our suffering continues. Science teaches us that is taboo to ask fundamental Why questions. Why are we suffering in the first place? Why do we continue to suffer? This they have no answer. They say, this is not a scientific question, you have to go to philosophy for this -- but then accepting some philosophy is inferior to the media supported worldview that only science and scientific evidence approved by the mainstream scientific body is the highest a source of truth and reality.

So why despite living in a prosperous nation we continue to degrade in our consciousness and lose the ability to control our mind and senses? e.g. Obesity in the US: http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-obesity-rates-prediction-20110826,0,6152399.story

It is because if we continue to place our faith solely in the authority of science, we will remain limited in our understanding of reality. We will fail to recognize the superior wisdom of ancient authority and we will fail to solve the real problems of life: Degradation of consciousness which only perpetuates our sufferings in this life and the next.

Whats the solution? How do get this something that science is failing to provide: Purification of our consciousness.

  • 34 Comments  
  • KYRANI Mar 22, 2012

    @ jmatt4lifehoe
    I agree with most of what you say but not the statement "science and medicine have taken off on a mistaken tangent which is driven by greed and elite reputation and has little to do with healing and helping the sick. " They are not on a mistaken tangent they are on a deliberate tangent and they are covering over the worst element in society, people who stress those close to them, as in family and friends and work associates for power and influence or revenge. The toxic people help generate disease in others and the medicos trade the damage for profit so they have an interest in covering it over. And the easiest way is to deny ESP, which is at a premium inside of close relationship. This is not just greed, it is the worst possible form.

  • jmatt4lifehoe Mar 20, 2012

    Modern, medical science and research most certainly are taboo. Genuine healing does not have negative side effects. I have never understood how it is possible for medicine to have negative, life impacting side effects. The opposite should be true. Health maintenance and healing should fortify the entire body and most importantly heal the afflicted part. From my observation, science and medicine have taken off on a mistaken tangent which is driven by greed and elite reputation and has little to do with healing and helping the sick. Too much emphasis has been placed on sythesizing our cures as opposed to finding the existing ones in nature, and they indeed are there. Once again, we are making life a more difficult struggle for ourselves than need be lived. We have lost our inherent connection to the earth, that same one by which other animals successfully live out their lives. We also do not give back to the earth, we only take from and ravage it. Humanity is missing a lot of the big picture. We have convinced ourselves we are writing and running the whole show. And yet, LIFE trudges on!

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    EthanT Oct 31, 2011

    Thanks Stevew and CharlieT ;-)

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    EthanT Oct 31, 2011

    Hi FS, yes, I think we are pretty much saying things along similar lines here. Since I am bored right now, I would like to add a little more though!

    You state that 1+1=2, is "perfect" knowledge. Well, 1+1=2 is a mathematical statement. What is the language of science, whereby its "truths" are proved and shown? That language is mathematics. So, does science then also contain perfect knowledge?

    I think an analogy might be in order here, to better illustrate what I am trying to convey.

    Take a prism. Shining on the prism, is white light. White light is a mixture of all wavelengths of light, or all colors of light (blue, red, yellow, etc). The prism will diffract the light, or bend the light, but it bends each wavelength of light, or each color of light, by a different amount. It thereby separates the white light into its different components of blue, red, yellow, etc. Think of the cover of Pink Floyd's Dark side of the Moon album ;-)

    Well, white light represents "perfect" knowledge, which is shining into the world all the time. Each culture, each religion and each and every one of us, unconsciously acts like our own kind of prism. We separate the perfect knowledge from its state of wholeness and pureness and separate it with our unique subjective way of filtering, due to our limited minds, our biases and our cultural conditioning. We therefore shine into the world something that represents perfect knowledge, and indirectly references back to it, but it is colored and only part of the whole truth.

    Of course, blue light is no more superior than red light is. You can't have white light without both blue and red light, and every other color/wavelength in the spectrum of light. All wavelengths ( or all world views, whether religion or science ) are just as valid as the next, and all come from the same source. Some prisms (or views) just might “filter” a bit more than others.

    I think Swami Vivekananda, a student of the great guru Sri Ramakrishna can help here too:

    “Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or mental discipline, or philosophy—by one, or more, or all of these—and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details."

    I personally think science can ultimately help here too. No knowledge is static. All imperfect knowledge is evolving back to perfect knowledge. Each imperfect type of knowledge, including science, serves its own purpose along the journey back to God. Is not IONs using science to learn more about psi/spirituality and improving the lives of others by spreading the knowledge thereby gained? Science can evolve too and will evolve, especially if it remains true to its claim to be an unbiased tool in the search for truth.

  • Fallensoul Oct 30, 2011

    ET: 1+1=2 is perfect knowledge, but its not a complete picture of mathematics. Perfect knowledge as I used the term doesn't necessarily mean the total experience of God, which we agree cannot be fully described. One could even go further and say that even a direct experience of God cannot be a perfectly complete experience because God by definition is infinitely unlimited and so one couldn't actually grasp that Supreme Being in full.

    But certainly this doesn't mean this Supremly intelligent being cannot choose to communicate knowledge to us in order to learn about and ultimately reach Him. In fact that PROCESS by which to obtain a direct experience of God, CAN be communicated and it can be communicated by God directly in His own words. And its those words that are perfect and can be accepted just as 1+1=2 is perfect knowledge. If we're positing that God is Absolute in nature and everything is one with that, then where is the difficulty is accepting that there is no difference between gaining a direct experience of God through His words, names, forms etc.

    Theres this difference between relative & absolute things. E.g. If one is thirsty, one cannot quench his thirst simply by calling out the name water because the substance water and the name water are relative (earthly-knowledge), yet on the spiritual/Brahman platform these two things are one, therefore by calling out God's names one CAN actually get that direct experience of God. They are one and the same thing. This is the sum and substance of Maha-mantra chanting which is the easiest method of self-realisation given to us in the Vedic literatures. We cannot get this direct visual perception of God, but we can obtain Him through chanting His holy names and then if He so desires, He can provide you with that direct experience by His mercy.

    Now If one actually compares this perfect knowledge given in the Vedas by God vs the speculations of one's own mind and limited reason, or the limited and imperfect methods of modern scientific observation and discovery -- which can at best be used as supporting knowledge to knowledge gained from the authority of God -- one quickly realizes the stark difference --despite one's elaborate attempts at trying to understand reality, one is simply unable to perceive it by these limited methods. Why? Because it is not that God is not there, or that perfect knowledge doesn't exist, but that our consciousness is currently so limited that it cannot grasp the spiritual reality.

    As this thread is proposing, a purification of consciousness is recommended in the Vedas by associating with the pure spiritual i.e God aka God's names. Then as consciousness is purified the same Vedic texts, the same name of God allows a direct experience of God. This is the real scientific experiment.

    p.s Im out travelling until December. Take care ET & friends (DyckDyck:Thank you for tolerating me)

  • DyckDyck Oct 29, 2011

    Fallensoul, you are uncovering me. Thank you. And I'm observing too. I see my propensity is to try to merge science and spirituality.

    That is why one can't simply 'try' something to see what happens. In the spiritual world things don't happen that way.

    For example, I don't will myself to sleep, I simply create conditions where sleep will come.

    I also cannot will myself, or choose to love another, or to meditate, or to be honest... although it may seem to the contrary & I may try.

    It is said that love cannot be described... only experienced. And like sleep, love appears on a continuum of shallow (or no love) to deep (or total or divine).

    Opposites appear to be exclusive in science. But, they are not in the spiritual world... like the Nothing being not opposite but within the Infinite.

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    stevew Oct 25, 2011

    EthanT--I haven't read all your posts in this thread, but with respect to your last post (October 21): Well-said!

  • Fallensoul Oct 24, 2011

    DyckDyck: Lets keep things very simple. You asked a question. I responded to it. If we're unhappy with it or its not clearly understood or we feel theres a problem in our communication, we can always ask for clarification. The goal of inquiry is to get closer to the truth.

    Perhaps start a thread if you wish to add more to the what you're trying to say because its certainly not clear asking multiple questions without actually stating things simply. We can discuss further there, I'll listen and you can feel heard.

  • DyckDyck Oct 24, 2011

    So are we now communicating now? Does everyone.... or, anyone feel 'understood?'

    I realize we are tossing words around from one space ship to another (yours and mine). But, are we pretty certain we comprehend what one another is trying to communicate. Or, are we assuming everything?

    Are we so hungry to get to answers there's nothing else? Is that what science is? Personality trait?

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    EthanT Oct 21, 2011

    I'm far from the first to do so, but I claim all knowledge is imperfect to some extent, except perhaps one type - that is, the direct experience of God. BUT, this experience, as stated within all religions, is beyond words and concepts and cannot be communicated, only experienced.

    Therefore any religious text, or hymn, or poem cannot directly talk about God. They cannot convey a "perfect" meaning or summation of the experience of God. All they can do is indirectly reference the experience, sort of like a blind man trying to point at the Sun by using the warmth of the Sun he can feel on his face to orient himself, but without ever actually "seeing" the Sun itself. The full extent of God is beyond all words, all concepts, and beyond any “earthly” knowledge.

    Therefore, science falls victim to the same limitations of knowledge that religion does. You see, humans like to work under paradigms, or worldviews. And, all paradigms and worldviews are ultimately self-limiting, just as words and concepts are.

    Science likes to view the world as a set of gears, or as a machine, or materialistically. Many western religions like to view God as the “Old Man in The Sky”, and there are many variants under the Eastern religions, as well. They ALL fall short of perfection.

    This is the reason there has been much conflict in the world. Each man, or culture, claiming his view (whether it be Vedic or Christian, or the views of science) is superior to all others, rather than realizing all earthly knowledge is imperfect, yet all indirectly reference the same objective and transcendent source of ALL knowledge, i.e. God. All knowledge comes from God. Just as God is the source of everything, God is also the source of knowledge, as well. (Knowledge, after all, does fall under the perview of “everything”)

    But, God can be reached through any of the world's religions.

    As Meister Eckhart -a Christian mystic - once said, “Mans ultimate limit is his God.”. This means your image of God usually represents the highest image of your current, and ultimately, self-limiting worldview.

    Rather, as he, and many others before him have said: “The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God as if he stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge. “ This idea is perhaps stated most beautifully in Yoga.

    If science can surpass it's own limited paradigms, it can advance, or “come closer to God”, like any other type of knowledge. Science is currently in a type of crisis now, that many are beginning to fill is a limitation due to the currently held “materialistic” paradigm. Perhaps, we will see a positive step-forward in the near future.

  • Fallensoul Oct 20, 2011

    Stevew: I appreciated your post. Thank you.

    >I fail to see why we should consider that ancient authority has superior wisdom.
    Empiric knowledge is ascending in nature. The map of reality is black and we try to shed light on reality bit by bit, trial and error. The problem is that we as humans doing research commit mistakes, our senses are imperfect, we have the tendency to cheat and become illusioned. Our minds are imperfect, and we're using tools that are imperfect in trying to discover a reality that is beyond our sense perception. The result is imperfect knowledge. Half knowledge. And yet we proudly claim this is the truth and in our secular world, its accepted and applauded.

    The problem is perpetuated by the fact that if what is claimed as scientific facts today, changes upside down tomorrow or in a hundred years when we're already dead and gone then how can one place any real faith in what science establishes as the truth. And yet we accept it. Recently the fundamental laws of relativity are being challenged. If a theory is accepted for so long and we accept as our reality, gets changed down the line, that has serious implications about our worldview vs actual reality. Right now evolution is the dominant theory. For how long? So in the meantime we accept that yes, there is no life after death or superior intelligence or purpose in the universe -- and we're so proud of our half-knowledge and we challenge everyone saying "Show us your evidence!" and then just before we die --science corrects itself.

    Now the alternative of ancient wisdom is that its not from a man-made source. Its claiming to be coming from a perfect supreme conscious source. The source of all being, knowledge, wisdom, beauty etc. Its not that some wise man wrote it down and future generations improved the research etc. Its descending knowledge. This map of reality is given in its entirety. The research work is done. One has to follow the map to get the treasure. Different routes may be recommended according to time, place and circumstance, but the map doesnt change over time. Perfect knowledge comes from a perfect source.

    And thats why its superior.

  • Fallensoul Oct 20, 2011

    > and we will fail to solve the real problems of life: Degradation of consciousness which only perpetuates our sufferings in this life
    Certainly degradation of consciousness is not the only source of our sufferings, and it is highly questionable whether it is the main source.

    The Vedic claim is that its the root cause. The idea is that consciousness is fundamental to the self. When the self misidentifies itself as being a material product i.e i am this body -- then that ignorance or degradation of consciousness from pure consciousness to material consciousness is the root cause of all sufferings. One identifies the self as the body and things affecting the material situation affects the person. It is just like a person within a car. If he identifies himself very strongly with the car, then if the car gets any scratches or meets with an accident, he is affected thinking that "I am hit" as if he is injured. Yet if one is able to free oneself from this misconception, by being able to purify the consciousness -- then one can situate oneself in his/her original spiritual consciousness in relation to the Supreme consciousness and then one can see that I am not a material product and become free from sufferings by transcending the material realm which designed to be a place of suffering.

    >Assuming, of course, that there is a next life.
    I guess you could speak to our lawyer Victor Zammit over at www.victorzammit.com or see our life after death thread: http://www.noetic.org/discussions/open/156/

    Ultimately its a question of the intensity of your search to find out these answers. A person who denies he has a disease, isnt really going to be searching for a doctor.

    >I am not sure how much, or monolithically, this view is supported by the media.
    Generally.

  • Fallensoul Oct 20, 2011

    Ethan T: Best we continue the discussion at the Duality/nonduality thread (http://www.noetic.org/discussions/open/29/) because essentially thats what it comes down to and I've challenged this idea sufficiently there. This claim that this life is just a play and that we're all God is certainly not supported in the Vedic wisdom, nor very appreciated by our practical realization. It's a struggle for existence here -- even modern science accepts that! If we say that I have to worry about practical day to day living but then ultimately it all doesn't matter and its just a dream or play and that everyone is God anyway -- then why bother doing anything -- especially try any kind of meditation or self realisation to get back to being God or to get out of the illusion. An illusioned God? This idea has so many contradictions.

    Saoirse: Nicely said. The problem is highlighted if we repeatedly ask the why question. e.g. "Why are our brains imperfect." ; "Why are human's hard-wired to compete for resources" The scientists make these claims, but ultimately they have to come down to an answer, "thats just the way it is." And thats the problem. Who says thats the way it is? Why accept their authority when it comes down to these cosmic questions. Isn't that a leap of faith.

    KYRANI: "Our suffering as humans on this planet is largely caused by the major diseases" -- Why?

    typo: good career choice and well said.Your last point about the mystic powers / psi being a distraction to enlightenment is acknowledged in the Vedic sciences. Psi can also be considered within the material realm, although more subtle. See the Understanding Reality through Yoga thread (http://www.noetic.org/discussions/open/31/) which discusses the same thing.

    DyckDyck: They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The Vedas say, a moment of realization is worth a million questions. If you were trying to cook something and you wondered, "What if we add this, or what about that, or what if we changed this, or what about that." The standard way is to get the recipe from your good wife and follow it and see the result -- then all questions will be answered. Its a simple principle, practice under a qualified teacher. Especially for one already experiencing the "benefits" of old-age. Time is limited Dyck.

    "What if we viewed suffering as beneficial, necessary, benevolent?" What if we viewed sugar as salty?
    Its no longer sugar.

    "Technology & science exacerbate the suffering, adding complexity & taking away nothing."
    Exactly. "so-called" advancement

    capt_infinity: Considering the limitations of science (http://www.noetic.org/discussions/open/169/) is scientific thought really the breakthrough for providing proof or the test of reality? Ironic that you mention scientific thought as the way to go and then most of what you say isnt scientific claims, even a link to more mental speculations.

  • capt_infinity Oct 15, 2011

    What a great thread. Postulate. It is ideas that change the world but all ideas are merely illusions until proven. That is the human dilemma. Ideas that fail to stand the test of reality result in illusion establishing the rules. We see it all the time in our religion, politics, beliefs, etc. Science understands that but how do we apply scientific thought to all things? We call it political science. Has there ever been a greater oxymoron?

    Thousands of years of evolution and the biggest mystery still in front of us is ourselves. Finding the Higgs Boson or not will be a wondrous thing but six million Jews and gypsies were put to their death because we do not understand ourselves. Has thought outside of science solved anything? Those that bubble up in spirituality and feel safe got on the same planes with everyone else on September 11th.

    I have had an idea that has led to a series of ideas. All are illusions until others can introduce their ideas and we arrive at a consensus. My set of ideas comes with a test so the results can be quantified and studied. Concept 101 with testing built in. You are all welcome to take this test with me. You can find it at (http://indigo-energy.blogspot.com/p/relationships.html#Youself). It is my hypothesis you will come away with a better understanding of how your conscious mind works which I think will lead to explanations on why we seem to be spinning our wheels when we step outside the boundaries of solid scientific principles.

    Take it and then we can compare illusions..

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    stevew Oct 12, 2011

    > It is because if we continue to place our faith solely in the authority of science, we will remain limited in our understanding of reality.

    Agreed, and this is exacerbated by (justifiably) eminent scientists, who use their scientific authority to pose as experts on things they know nothing about.

    > We will fail to recognize the superior wisdom of ancient authority

    I certainly agree that spiritual traditions are the distilled wisdom of many generations of thought, but I fail to see why we should consider that ancient authority has superior wisdom. Surely the accumulated wisdom of the generations since this ancient authority should have added to our knowledge, rather than subtracted from it, and we should be looking forwards, rather than backwards, for wisdom.

    > and we will fail to solve the real problems of life: Degradation of consciousness which only perpetuates our sufferings in this life

    Certainly degradation of consciousness is not the only source of our sufferings, and it is highly questionable whether it is the main source.

    > and the next.

    Assuming, of course, that there is a next life.

    > the media supported worldview that only science and scientific evidence approved by the mainstream scientific body is the highest a source of truth and reality.

    I am not sure how much, or monolithically, this view is supported by the media.

  • DyckDyck Oct 11, 2011

    "Despite advancement, suffering continues." Technology & science exacerbate the suffering, adding complexity & taking away nothing.

    Please go slow. Do you ignore the psychological suffering of fear, of frustration, of unfulfilled ambition, of jealousy, of selfishness, of low esteem, etc., etc..? And many of these are deeply buried under layers of denial and illusion, but are nonetheless suffering. So, in this light, perhaps now go back to my previous comment.

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    typo Oct 11, 2011

    I have a family of doctors. I rebelled and took the road of studying philsophy and mysticism and spent my life trying to bring the two together. You'll find it rare for a doctor to admit, that they have no idea of how the body works essentially. They labeled the processes, gave names to the parts and sub parts[e.g. you push the red button and such and such happens].
    There is lots of social status in knowledge and more recently trivia. Modern medicine is simple, it's prevention or its cut and or poison. A doc tells you how to prevent a illness, [i.e. eat healthy; excercise], or when an illness occurs, they medicate with pharmacuiticals, [some are beneficial, many are very dangerous as we don't thoroughly understand about how the body works, just what it does or seems to do], or we cut sometihng out or poision it, and then what happens, the life force, heals the body. So it's strange as doctors don't heal. Albeit we need at this time modern medicine as we havent evolved collectivly enough to access our dormant powers in a way that really can adress the level of sufferign and illness that is extant. But again doctors are reticent to admit, they have no idea how the body works essentially. What real tragety that has happened in the last 40 years is the impersonalization of medicine. You loose the greatest aspect of healign which is being loved and nurtured, as well, insult is added to injury as we are punished fiscally after an injury. Materialism is a form of addiction and arises through teh movement of the human mind to favor the aspect of midn that is rote based over the perceptive intuitive part, or the intellgient part. This happens with gradual increase of expresion due to technological advancemnt which causes a slow growing insanity as we live more and more in the abstractions of concepts and prioritize knolwedge over interaction with the here-now. It's exacerbated by the ease of life technolgoy allows, and the increase in population, a bigger problem that global warming, and less need for self autonomy.
    Every nation and civilisation start innocent, reach a high point and corrupt, just liek the seasons in nature. It's quite natural.
    Spiritual sciences I do have a caveat about. We can loose ourselves in the paranormal, and loose sight into well being and enlightement. Get lost in that realm as much as we can in the material realm. Rudlolf Stenier[Albeit I am not a Theosophist] said there were two evils, one Lucifer, who represented pure spiriutalism and the otehr Ahriman, who represented pure materialism and mechanisation. That the middle road was the balance, evenness. But I have seen so much people get lost in tantra or a various psi abilities as much as peopel can get obssesed with material things. I think its why most great philsopher's and sages don't mention psi much at all, rather focus on method of cleasing mind, as both material technology and paranormal technology can become barriers to the goal, end of suffering, well being.

  • KYRANI Oct 10, 2011

    Our suffering as humans on this planet is largely caused by the major diseases and various medical conditions such as obeisity, allergies and autoimmune diseases. All of these I have found are the result of an unsuspecting person's various reactions to conditions created within toxic relationships and foul game play. Most of it is done for the sake of power and influence by a toxic person over others to whom they are related. The medical industry makes trillions of dollars annually from the sufferers. For that reason I believe they obstruct the research that needs to be done. A part of that research is on ESP. They insist that double binding, which is relational distancing of the subjects, must be used and they claim it as a standard for the experiments to be scientific. There is only one condition that makes an experiment scientific and that is the use of a control experiment. A control gives us confidence that the results we obtain are due to the test conditions. ESP is at a premium inside of relationship and if a person is made fearful then they will become even more insightfully perceptive but at the expense of discrimination. The brain, from what I can see allocates it's resources so that the areas most needed are the most active. So for instance if a person is busy trying to guess what is on a zener card their brain highly activates those areas involved in thinking and gives low priority to areas involved in perception and that is not only direct mental perception but sensory perception also. I can show experiments to do that will dramatically change the landscape.
    Another problem that ironically enough adds to our suffering is the comfort zone. This is not a state of rest but mental fuzz and there are serious physiological consequences, especially for the heart-lung system. A comfort zone becomes habitual and in times of moderate to severe stress can be catastrophic, even to contribute to a person's death.

  • KYRANI Oct 10, 2011

    Our suffering as humans on this planet is largely caused by the major diseases and various medical conditions such as obeisity, allergies and autoimmune diseases. All of these I have found are the result of an unsuspecting person's various reactions to conditions created within toxic relationships and foul game play. Most of it is done for the sake of power and influence by a toxic person over others to whom they are related. The medical industry makes trillions of dollars annually from the sufferers. For that reason I believe they obstruct the research that needs to be done. A part of that research is on ESP. They insist that double binding, which is relational distancing of the subjects, must be used and they claim it as a standard for the experiments to be scientific. There is only one condition that makes an experiment scientific and that is the use of a control experiment to gain confidence in the test conditions. ESP is at a premium inside of relationship and if a person is made fearful then they will become even more insightfully perceptive but at the expense of discrimination. The brain, from what I can see allocates it's resources so that the areas most needed are the most active. So for instance if a person is busy trying to guess what is on a zener card their brain highly activates those areas involved in thinking and gives low priority to areas involved in perception and that is not only direct mental perception but sensory perception also. I can show experiments to do that will dramatically change the landscape.
    Another problem that ironically enough adds to our suffering is the comfort zone. This is not a state of rest but mental fuzz and there are serious physiological consequences, especially for the heart-lung system. A comfort zone becomes habitual and in times of moderate to severe stress can be catastrophic, even to contribute to a person's death.

  • DyckDyck Oct 10, 2011

    What if we viewed suffering as beneficial, necessary, benevolent? How would that change the inquiry? Would it take away any bias, judgment, fear, conditioning, around it?

  • Fallensoul Oct 07, 2011

    EthanT: I responded to some of the things you're saying here in the nonduality & duality thread - http://www.noetic.org/discussions/open/29/
    I'll try to respond to the rest as practical. Im on the road now practically till mid jan.

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    EthanT Sep 29, 2011

    Maybe using the sea analogy there is another simple way of looking at this.

    The highest commandment in the Christian religion is "love your neighbor as yourself and love God with all your heart" Simple, right? Well, why is it so hard to acheive then? It's seemingly impossible on a global scale in today's world.

    This is because certain energies have not finished playing out yet in the world. Consciousness has not evolved to an extent to where it excludes the possibility of channeling energy in a way that works counter to humanity acheiving the above mentioned on a global scale. You can call these energies negative, or evil, but that is just one view. You could also just view it as a lack of consciousness.

    Using the sea analogy, you cannot have calm waters until the winds stop blowing and the waves subside.

    So, God, as the transcendent undifferentiated energy source behing everything, is representred as the sea. God is beyond all pairs of opposites, including good and evil. Just as the sea can have calm waters and stormy waters, but is not fully characterized by one or the other alone. Deep underwater in the sea, the waves are not felt, or noticed, at all. Life (and the waves) are on the surface and this is where the action is.

    The Universe and the life in it are a manifestation of this undifferentiated energy source in a differentiated form, which brings about the play of opposites, thereby creating the tensions and conflict, as well as growth and change, that we see all around us. Life is represented by the waves thrashing around on the sea - sometimes waters are calm and sometimes the waters are turbulent, but the waters are always in motion.

    Humanity's ultimate destinaton is "to go back to God", which is a conscious state, and not so much a physical state, and this could be viewed as the sea becoming perfectly calm, where the waters are no longer in motion. The waves have played themselves out and the energies driving them are no longer manifesting in that form.

    This is like in Yoga where the perfect state of mind is represented by calm waters in a pond, which make the water perfectly clear right down to the bottom of the pond, just as the serene state of mind achieved through yoga is calm and clear "all the way down".

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Sep 29, 2011

    Cont from post above ...

    So, the daily drama of life and the sea must play itself out. The storm always ultimately subsides, but we cannot just stop it, nor would we want to. Unlike with the sea, we can influence the course life takes, but this again is just the energies of life playing themselves out. We influence things only in ways that we are ready, or are capable of, just as a certain wave only forms when the sea conditions are just right for that wave, and not before or after. It took us many lifetimes for our consciousness (or our wave) to reach the point where we could make the decisions we are making today and to view the world the way we are viewing it today.

    Now, each of us, as individuals, can help bring about change. This is what sets us apart from say a wave. We can channel our energy to useful purposes via our will. But, we channel what our consciousness enables us to channel and this usually happens in its own good time. Likewise, we cannot force our view or the change we see, as good, on someone else. We can only help open their "eyes".

    Anyhow, thanks, I sort of enjoyed playing around with this analogy in my mind. Admittedly, it has some problems meshing up with the universal symbologies found in all religions. Anyhow, sorry for all the long-winded posts, lol.

  • Saoirse Sep 26, 2011

    Good point, Ethan. How often do we hear people say, "I can't help it! He pushes my buttons!" Yet, how long will anyone keep pushing a button that doesn't do anything? Or they claim someone has hurt their feelings, and take no responsibility for their own emotions. The same is true for a lot of circumstances. We can't always change the situation, but we can change how (and whether) we deal with it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Sep 26, 2011

    I think you have to ask what IS suffering too. According to Buddhism, the cause of suffering is fear/desire, or essentially the ego clinging to the material world. Change your viewpoint, or your conscious focus, and your suffering can cease (easier said than done!!)

    In much of Indian Philosophy (and many others for that matter) it is maintained that we are not what we consider ourselves to be. If our ego is an illusion, who is it exactly that is suffering? If we, and everything around us is "God", who and what is suffering?

    So, maybe science has no answer because it doesn't understand the question.

  • Saoirse Sep 26, 2011

    To ask why we suffer, though, is to assume that there's a purpose or reason to it, and this is what I think makes it a question for religion.From the standpoint of science, there is no purpose to it. I could make a miscalculation stepping off a curb and break my ankle, and I would suffer for it. But not for any particular cosmic purpose-- just because my brain isn't perfect, and the calculations necessary for walking and stepping off a curb are complex. Likewise, there are people who spend their whole lives on the verge of starvation in disease infested slums. Religion or philosophy might hold that there's a greater purpose in it, but a scientist is going to say it's a result of climate, overpopulation, and the fact that, like any other animal, humans are hard-wired to compete for resources.

    Also, science is a method created to test objective reality. The question of higher purposes simply doesn't lend itself to that approach, So I have to agree that those sorts of questions aren't really the kind of thing you could examine empirically. That doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't examine them -- just that science probably isn't the best method for it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Sep 26, 2011

    Hi FallenSoul,
    Sorry, I didn't mean that to come across as a "challenge". I don't even really like debate, lol. Just tried to answer the question you put forward by expressing my viewpoint.
    I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, though. It definitely wasn't meant to be a “rosy” picture. In fact, it’s more of a neutral view, if anything. The same energies that are playing out in the world are just as capable as creating WWII as they are the kind of peace movements inspired by Ghandi. Or, they are just as capable of creating a Hitler as they are a Mother Teresa.
    In addition, it isn't meant to be a pacifist view, or a lazy view that just accepts anything, including an inferior position. One person's will to change the whole world is just as valid as one person's will to do nothing, under this view. We are all personifications of that undifferentiated energy source and we are all playing out our own roles, for good or for bad. It’s all part of the “play” we call life.
    Those roles may be labeled good or bad, or what have you, but the source of these energies is beyond all labels. It's like waves in an ocean. Some are soft and gentle, others are large and powerful, some are hollow, some are crumbly, some are clear blue and some are murky with sand, some are beautiful, some are rather ugly. But, they are all manifestations of the energy of water and they come and they go, as they play out the daily drama of the sea. What point is there in trying to force the sea to change?
    I was actually a bit surprised you object to this view, as the Indian view is one of the views that expresses this the best. The idea that the whole Universe is, if you will, God "at play". One example being Vishnu dreaming the dream of the Universe and all of us, including the "gods" and "deities" are manifestations, or personifications, of different aspects of that ultimate energy source, or the dreamer. The dream is going run its course, despite what we do, or maybe you can even say, exactly because of what we do. With this viewpoint, it's really the same thing in the end.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Sep 26, 2011

    Slightly off tangent, but I love some of the old Indian aphorisms, and one of my favorites somewhat addresses this view. A young student completed a lesson with his Guru, covering the idea that the world is God "at play". “You are Brahman. You are God”, says the Guru. The student says, “Wow, I am God!” . This new knowledge is tantalizing to him and, as he leaves his Guru for the day, he is walking down the street contemplating this idea. He becomes enraptured with it and starts looking around thinking the world is God, I am God, the tree there is God, and all is God. His new found knowledge is exciting to him and he's not really paying attention to where he is walking as a result. He finds himself in the middle of the street and, sure enough, here comes a driver riding his elephant. The driver starts screaming "Get out of the road you lunatic!”. The student, empowered with his new knowledge, says to himself, ‘I am God and the elephant is God. How can God hurt God. No, I will remain where I am in the realization that all is One. The Elephant cannot hurt me”. Part way through that thought, the elephant comes, picks up the student with his trunk and hurls him into a ditch along side of the road. Disheveled, confused, soar and feeling a bit confused, the student picks himself and mopes his way back to his Guru. He tells his Guru what happened and his Guru confirms that, yes, indeed, the student is God and the elephant is God, and that All is God. So, the student asks his Guru how that event could have possibly transpired the way it did, leaving the poor neophyte disheveled and soar. The Guru then says, “Why did you not listen to the voice of God telling you to get the heck out of the road!”
    Part of the point of this is that you ‘re not going to be able to stop certain energies from playing out. If an elephant comes running … move! lol

  • Fallensoul Sep 24, 2011

    Ethan T: Nice challenge. The picture you paint is rosy -- go with the flow, let things happen, don't force change, enjoy life for the sheer joy of it -- and there is some truth to that. But the reality of our situation and the reality with most life situations is that we tend to get what we put in -- and that requires effort on our part. Theres an objective reality out there and anyone who is serious about their own happiness wishes to understand that reality and act. That means one has to really go about searching for the truth.

    The vedas say there are subtle laws of nature that are working and just like gross laws they do not discriminate. We could be the most important person in the world, but if we walk off a cliff we're going to fall down. Fire burns even a child despite their complete innocence. If you observe this world carefully, there's some serious laws that are being enforced upon us -- death, old-age, disease, rebirth. These are serious problems hampering our enjoyment here. Now if we're proposing theres some higher intelligence, consciousness, purpose behind the universe etc, then why are we under these laws? Whose responsible for this? and is there some reason for the way things are?

    So "Why get all worked up over things, when this is the way it has to be and has to happen?" I object to that. An animal may accept this position because they do not have advanced consciousness to question their reality, but as human beings we DO have the higher intelligence and consciousness. And the fact is that there exists knowledge that explains that we're accepting an inferior position because if one can appreciate the fact that we're being forced to reincarnate again and again into various life forms and undergo various temporary enjoyments and sufferings without actually becoming satisfied, then one can appreciate the need for solving this problem.

    Scientists are working around the clock to fight disease, to fight old-age, to fight death. So you may say, let it be, let them do the work for us, but the objection i have to that is that, you have to fly your own plane at the time of death -- and you do not know what your position will be. Just see how risky that is. We are thinking it will be rosy, but it may not be, because there is Vedic information that there is the law of karma, there is the law of reincarnation and these laws will enforce you in ways you may not like. No-one likes to accept death, but its enforced upon us none-the-less. So one has to appreciate that we are accepting these things, but if we're meant to be consciousness spiritual beings, then why are we accepting this position? and how to get develop ourselves to get out to a real platform of enjoyment.

    So the point of these posts is not to change others -- but to provide a perception of the picture this information is presenting, which is a serious one for the serious seeker of the truth.

    >"He who knows, does not talk"...he types. :)

  • charliet Aug 30, 2011

    EthanT

    Bravo!!, beautifully and simply put. Now if we humans can only control our impatience.

    Charliet

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Aug 30, 2011

    It's just going to happen, like it has always happened.

    Just like going from a child to an adult is an inevitability, so will human consciousness evolve from the state we are in now, to the state we will be in.

    That's one meaning some folks take out of the old Hindu saying "He who knows, does not talk". Why get all worked up over things, when this is the way it has to be and has to happen? All is transient and is on an ineluctable path to its eternal "destiny". Some things only change in their own given time and can't be forced. You can argue and debate and push all you want to speed it up, only to no avail. Sometimes all you can do is sit back and watch the marvelous play we call life, unfold.

    The most important thing we can do (and the best starting point for this journey) is to transform ourselves. If we can't transform ourselves, or can't even "fix" our own self, how can we fix the entire world?

    When folks start to do this, they'll find like minded individuals doing the same. Sometimes they group up and form organizations like, say IONS, and next thing you know, it all just sorta falls in place.

    It's like where in the Bible it says something along the lines of, "Love God with all your heart and your neighor as yourself. These are the greatest commandments". That's because, if everybody could do that, all else would follow.

    It's that incredibly simple and apparently incredibly difficult, all at the same time.

  • Fallensoul Aug 30, 2011

    Ethan T: Yes there is definitely a bright side, lets flesh that out here. What is your practical solution for consciousness to evolve back out of matter?

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Aug 29, 2011

    Materialistic science is just a symptom of a larger and deeper issue. Mainly, an evolution of consciousness that involved a devolution into matter. Fundamentalist religion, atheism, materialistic complacency are also all symptoms.

    On the bright side, humanity is awakening from this materialistic slumber as is evident in all walks of life, and especially on sites like IONs ;-)

    Alan Watts spoke about this in much more depth and elequence in a lectures series I posted on here a ways back.

  • Fallensoul Aug 28, 2011

    The Scientific picture that only accepting the knowledge from authorities who rely on experimentation and research is misleading. There are higher forms of knowledge. There are authorities realized in these fields of knowledge and by hearing from these authorities we can obtain something which we really need individually and collectively: Purification of consciousness. How? The Vedic authorities reveal that through spiritual sound vibration like maha-mantra chanting we can reconnect with the spiritual reality and regain our loving relationship with the Source. Spiritual sciences is the real breakthrough, but sadly labeled as taboo. Ironic, isnt it.

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