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How to be psychic and see ghosts

Posted Jan. 21, 2014 by NoetPoet in Open

commented on Feb. 16, 2014
by NoetPoet

Quote

66

Learn to be psychic in 10 easy lessons:

http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/10_Easy_Psychic_Lessons.pdf

The science behind why people see ghosts:

http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/why-people-see-ghosts.pdf

  • 66 Comments  
  • NoetPoet Feb 16, 2014

    Perception does not equal truth.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 15, 2014

    Thank you for your stimulating responses. You have a right to your perceptions and interpretations of your perceptions, and I have a right to mine. Yours toward expanding mutual respect,empathy, knowledge,wisdom,and integral health and full functioning . . . individually, socially, ecologically, and omniversally. Here's wishing you the best in life. Bob

  • NoetPoet Feb 11, 2014

    Part 6

    “The Kabbalistic Tree of Life I've seen looks like a geometric design. Do you have MS-Publisher software? If so, and if interested in unscrambling the word salad, my graphic depicts the 10 realms as layered transparent spheres seated one within the other.
    Actually I got the idea from various sized Russian dolls seated one within the other from largest outside to smallest in the center. Later, I saw a child's toy in Toys 'R Us which looked like my concept of various sizes of transparent spheres seated one within another, just fewer spheres (5).”

    So it sounds like you cobbled your idea together from objects you’d seen in the past and a very arbitrary and anthropocentric worldview about how the universe is structured.

    “I know stating my hypothesis doesn't make it more convincing but that is the best I can do under my present circumstances. I'm caregiver 24/7 for my wife with little time and financial resources for testing long expensive null hypotheses. Maybe in my next incarnation I can test it.”

    Not to worry, your incorrect claim that I am Dean Radin or someone impersonating him is enough to discredit your hypothesis.

    “Also, an example of causation is the precognitive dream I recounted about going into my office to find the desk overturned, etc. predictive of a lay-off a few weeks later.”

    We’ve already been through this. I’ll add though that there would have been *nothing* in between the time you had the dream and the time you were laid off to indicate that the dream was about you getting fired. Had you not been fired, then you probably would have rationalised some other interpretation for the dream or simply forgotten about it.

  • NoetPoet Feb 11, 2014

    Part 5

    “While I respect your professional opinion, when I was a biofeedback student of Elmer and Alyce Green at the Menninger Foundation laboratory in Kansas [1982], the Elmer Green related an experiment they conducted with Swami Rama. During the time the Swami was emitting very slow brain waves (which characterize a “deep” stage of sleep not associated with dreams) Alyce Green walked across the room and became engaged in an activity. After he awakened the Swami gave in impressive detail what had been happening in the time period he was “dead to the world.” [I forgot to ask Elmer if the Swami snored.] Characteristically, in that stage of sleep, we are not responsive to nor aware of what is going on around us. True, the terms “extremely low frequency” or “dreamless sleep”, normally called a Delta brain wave 1-4 hz today [instrumentation for the Delta brain wave had not yet been added to the Beta, Alpha, and Theta brain waves equipment at that time. Of course, biofeedback has come a long way since then with seven brainwaves now on record].”

    Is this the same Sami Rama who’s had a number of sexual abuse claims made against him? Were these researchers independent of Rama, or were they in some way under his influence? Gurus are infamous for performing stage magic tricks and trying to pass them off as miracles or psychic abilities. Again, what experimental controls were put in place to prevent unintended or covert transfer of information between researchers and Rama? “Dead to the world” doesn’t sound like a very scientific description of a person’s state of consciousness, and considering how little was apparently known about certain types of brainwaves at the time, I would expect that there are less extraordinary explanations which have to be ruled out first.

    “NP: "How is it inadequate? What do you mean that it’s reductionist and why is that a problem?"
    I think I answered your questions above. If not let me know.”

    No you didn’t answer it.

  • NoetPoet Feb 11, 2014

    Part 4

    “In response to your assumption that I ". . . have dedicated much effort to cultivating psychic awareness", that was a by-product of seeking spiritual growth, namely, oneness with the Christian Holy Spirit rather than a primary objective. Having begun theological school while in my mother's womb attending Pentecostal Christian theology courses, I was involuntarily immersed in CHS experiences so I spent at least nine months in her womb 'drinking' oxytocin, endorphins, seratonin, etc. emittances stimulated by my mother's ecstatic love experiences with her Holy Spirit.”

    That might have been your primary objective, but it is pretty clear from what and how you write that you have also been very interested in developing psychic abilities / gifts of the Spirit as part of your quest for spiritual growth. If you were exposed to unusual levels of certain hormones and other chemicals in the womb, this may go some way to explaining your heightened subconscious perceptiveness of five-sense data and your elevated tendency to hallucinate.

    “As I remember, my first precognitive dream -- a beautiful glowing full moon morphing into a Christian cross -- came when my body was about ten years old. [I considered that a correlative precognitive dream.”]

    How was it precognitive? It sounds more like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

  • NoetPoet Feb 11, 2014

    Part 3

    “For example, In the 80's I was an adjunct professor of human behavior in Pepperdine's MBA program. My new class of 20 middle-age students were seated in a circle sharing a little about their current jobs (mostly middle managers from various organizations in the area) and expectations they had about the curriculum and, of course, me. About half way through the sharing we came to a beautiful 40-something woman. As she began to speak a mask resembling a mime's but with small tufts of cotton here and there emerged from and covered her face for a few seconds. I thought perhaps she would be telling us about it but didn't. After she finished her sharing I asked her if a white mask that looked like it could be a mime's mask, but for some white tufts of cotton on it, had any meaning for her. She exclaimed, "Oh yes! When I was a teenage girl I had a terrible case of acne. My doctor prescribed a white salve instructing me to apply it to my face every night and to place tufts of cotton over the oozing open acne lesions. Even though the acne eventually went away I have been very concerned that it might return so I just imagine putting the salve and cotton on my face hoping that would keep it away.”

    It sounds like you are unusually prone to visual hallucinations. This vision can be explained as a result of your subconscious mind picking up subtle five-sense information from the woman (e.g. blotches or marks on her skin, self-conscious body language, even hints in what she was saying), combining it with your own subconscious memories about a certain type of acne treatment, and then building up a hypothesis about this woman which took the form of a visual hallucination.

  • NoetPoet Feb 11, 2014

    Part 2 of 4

    “Based on the Puharich studies in which he used a Faraday Cage [later followed by Charles Tart’s studies] to determine if mind energy could be sent from a party outside the Faraday Cage to a person receiving a psychic message inside. Their particular Faraday Cage design blocked electromagnetic energies and allowed psychic messages to penetrate through its walls to enter psychic sensitive receivers inside. From these studies we can at least reason that mind energy does in fact exist interdependent with electrical energy. We can also reason that if electricity permeates the entire universe as astrophysicists say, it seems logical mind does too. At the same time electricity and Psi remain separate but interdependent with each other, and as the Tantricists say “interwoven”, permeating everything including us and everything represented in my ten-sphere transparent map of OmniMind consciousness.”

    Doesn’t this experiment contradict your idea of a universal psych-electric field? If the field is both psychic AND electrical in nature, then what you’re effectively saying is that it can be both blocked and not blocked at the same time. Moreover, how do you reconcile the alleged universality of this psycho-electric field and the interdependence of “psi” and electricity, with these experiments showing that your fields does not (at least fully) occupy any part of the universe within a Faraday Cage? I would be very interested to know what sort of experimental controls were used in these studies to ensure that 1) information could not be communicated inadvertently and/or by non-verbal means to the experimental subjects, and 2) there was no room for vagueness or interpretation of the information conveyed in the researcher’s questions or the subject’s answers.

    “Edgar Michell's ESP experiment from space while on his moon voyage would tend, at least in my way of looking at things, to support the idea of psi being everywhere within at least humankind's ability to experience psi in space.”

    Edgar Mitchell’s ESP experiments in space have been discredited, see here: http://www.skepdic.com/edgarmitchell.html

    “With all due respect, outside of your having made an interesting observation in 1) above, I really have no interest in the statistical accuracy but rather those where OM's and my "accuracy" have helped a client/patient in some significantly healthful way.”

    In other words you’re cherry-picking data because you’ve got confirmation bias.

  • NoetPoet Feb 11, 2014

    Part 1 of 4

    “I know you are Dean Radin. I asked Omnipresent Mind-Spirit who I have come to experience in and around everyone and everything, including pictures, true and false, if It would give me the identity of the human individual behind the caricature and OM showed your actual human face as it would be in a photograph and named 'Dean Radin' or someone impersonating him. [Note: I was informed by OM that you were replaced by Angela Murphy after you were informed I had identified you.]”

    Then this proves that your omnipresent and omniscient Co-Source is a figment of your imagination. I am not Dean Radin, and I am certainly not impersonating him. Ask Michelle if you don’t believe me, or ask Dean himself. Nor am I Angela Murphy, or any other IONS staff member past or present (this allegation is particularly strange, given that Angela’s extremely brief biography profile on this site suggests that she didn’t part with IONS on the best of terms).

    “In that environment your opinion as stated above would be true with one addition, namely, The Omnipresence of The All Psi within and around all and each of us in the group. “

    An omnipresent All Psi would add nothing in terms of explanatory value here. In fact it would create more problems than it solves, because we’d have to devise testable hypotheses about the nature, origin and functioning of this omnipresent All Psi.

    “Further, as you probably know astrophysicists tell us electricity is everywhere in our universe at least as far as the most powerful Hubble space telescope can see, we are constituents permeated of one, possibly infinite,psycho- electric field which makes each of us a microcosmic psycho- electric field within the macrocosmic psycho-electrical field. So it is no mystery why our psycho-electric bodies can communicate psycho-electrically with each other.”

    By that logic, a radio made entirely out of matchsticks would be just as effective as an actual radio. Just because different objects are made of the same subatomic particles, it doesn’t mean that those objects can ipso facto communicate with each other. Communication is made possible by particular *arrangements* and *interactions* within and between objects. As far as I know, there is zero evidence that humans are naturally capable of communicating directly via their electric fields. I have certainly never heard of any scientists associated with the Hubble space telescope claiming that science has identified a universal “psycho-electric” field – indeed, this idea sounds suspiciously similar to the luminiferous aether concept which was discredited in the late 19th century.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 11, 2014

    Discussion with NP - Part 1 - Thank your patience -
    RJ: “ Yes and No. Yes to the "uniquely accurate 'psychic' prediction for [me]". Please be more specific in your reference to ". . . heightened sensitivity to ordinary sensory data mentioned above . . ." No one else had a similar vision. I don't know, Dean, about the "statistically unusual" reference you made.”
    NP: "You think I’m Dean Radin? What gave you that idea? I assure you that I’m not Dean. "
    RJ: I know you are Dean Radin. I asked Omnipresent Mind-Spirit who I have come to experience in and around everyone and everything, including pictures, true and false, if It would give me the identity of the human individual behind the caricature and OM showed your actual human face as it would be in a photograph and named 'Dean Radin' or someone impersonating him. [Note: I was informed by OM that you were replaced by Angela Murphy after you were informed I had identified you.]
    NP: "The heightened sensitivity is just that – a greater sensitivity to five-sense information brought about by a calm environment and a focused mind."

    RJ: In that environment your opinion as stated above would be true with one addition, namely, The Omnipresence of The All Psi within and around all and each of us in the group. Further, as you probably know astrophysicists tell us electricity is everywhere in our universe at least as far as the most powerful Hubble space telescope can see, we are constituents permeated of one, possibly infinite,psycho- electric field which makes each of us a microcosmic psycho- electric field within the macrocosmic psycho-electrical field. So it is no mystery why our psycho-electric bodies can communicate psycho-electrically with each other.

    Based on the Puharich studies in which he used a Faraday Cage [later followed by Charles Tart's studies] to determine if mind energy could be sent from a party outside the Faraday Cage to a person receiving a psychic message inside. Their particular Faraday Cage design blocked electromagnetic energies and allowed psychic messages to penetrate through its walls to enter psychic sensitive receivers inside. From these studies we can at least reason that mind energy does in fact exist interdependent with electrical energy. We can also reason that if electricity permeates the entire universe as astrophysicists say, it seems logical mind does too. At the same time electricity and Psi remain separate but interdependent with each other, and as the Tantricists say "interwoven", permeating everything including us and everything represented in my ten-sphere transparent map of OmniMind consciousness.

    Edgar Michell's ESP experiment from space while on his moon voyage would tend, at least in my way of looking at things, to support the idea of psi being everywhere within at least humankind's ability to experience psi in space.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 11, 2014

    Discussion with NP - Part 2
    NP: "Your vision does not seem to be statistically unusual because when we consider 1) how many visions of such accuracy you have had in your life (even though you have dedicated much effort to cultivating psychic awareness) and 2) that no one else in the healing group had a similarly impressive vision."
    RJ: With all due respect, outside of your having made an interesting observation in 1) above, I really have no interest in the statistical accuracy but rather those where OM's and my "accuracy" have helped a client/patient in some significantly healthful way. For example, In the 80's I was an adjunct professor of human behavior in Pepperdine's MBA program. My new class of 20 middle-age students were seated in a circle sharing a little about their current jobs (mostly middle managers from various organizations in the area) and expectations they had about the curriculum and, of course, me. About half way through the sharing we came to a beautiful 40-something woman. As she began to speak a mask resembling a mime's but with small tufts of cotton here and there emerged from and covered her face for a few seconds. I thought perhaps she would be telling us about it but didn't. After she finished her sharing I asked her if a white mask that looked like it could be a mime's mask, but for some white tufts of cotton on it, had any meaning for her. She exclaimed, "Oh yes! When I was a teenage girl I had a terrible case of acne. My doctor prescribed a white salve instructing me to apply it to my face every night and to place tufts of cotton over the oozing open acne lesions. Even though the acne eventually went away I have been very concerned that it might return so I just imagine putting the salve and cotton on my face hoping that would keep it away. But now I'm so happy, I just realized I don't need to do that anymore! Obviously, she had become conscious of and unloaded some baggage. The rest of us all applauded and went on with our sharing. [To me this is a case incident of correlative precognition [synchronicity] coupled with psychotherapeutic affect/effect].
    In response to your assumption that I ". . . have dedicated much effort to cultivating psychic awareness", that was a by-product of seeking spiritual growth, namely, oneness with the Christian Holy Spirit rather than a primary objective. Having begun theological school while in my mother's womb attending Pentecostal Christian theology courses, I was involuntarily immersed in CHS experiences so I spent at least nine months in her womb 'drinking' oxytocin, endorphins, seratonin, etc. emittances stimulated by my mother's ecstatic love experiences with her Holy Spirit.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 11, 2014

    Part 3 - RJ: Once satisfied with achieving conscious oneness with the Animus side of the HS I began my search for what was missing, namely, the Anima side of my inner androgyne. In college I studied Jung and some of his followers, Ira Progoff, James Hillman, and later Jean Shinoda Bolen and started keeping dream journals, evolving from that time into higher, deeper, broader, wider, centered, and balanced androgynous psycho-spiritual-electrical experiences. As I remember, my first precognitive dream -- a beautiful glowing full moon morphing into a Christian cross -- came when my body was about ten years old. [I considered that a correlative precognitive dream]
    NP: “My only past experiences of seeing inside an actual human body by way of X-ray pictures was my own body.”
    That would have been enough to shape your mind’s perception of what it looks like to see inside an actual human body. You might have also seen pictures of x-ray photos in books or on posters in hospitals etc. before the experiment."
    “RJ: It's possible but I don't know how probable your speculation might be valid, not to mention reliable.
    Not being an EE like you, my best guess is that it may have been my subconscious mind receiving very low hertz signals (ELF under 4 hz) converting them [telemetering-like] to 'paravisualized' X-ray-like pictures in my occipital lobe unconsciously sent [or maybe consciously if she wanted someone to receive her call for help on the outside chance she might avert terminal leukemia] sent after 'telemetered' into under 4hz signals from within the patient's subconscious mind. [I apologize for the perhaps seeming circumlocuted preceding sentence. Hope it's clear enough].”

    NP: I have never seen or heard of any evidence that any part of the human brain being able to pick up Extremely Low Frequency radio waves, let alone interpret them as mental images. So this doesn’t sound like a more plausible hypothesis.
    RJ: While I respect your professional opinion, when I was a biofeedback student of Elmer and Alyce Green at the Menninger Foundation laboratory in Kansas [1982], the Elmer Green related an experiment they conducted with Swami Rama. During the time the Swami was emitting very slow brain waves (which characterize a "deep" stage of sleep not associated with dreams) Alyce Green walked across the room and became engaged in an activity. After he awakened the Swami gave in impressive detail what had been happening in the time period he was "dead to the world." [I forgot to ask Elmer if the Swami snored.] Characteristically, in that stage of sleep, we are not responsive to nor aware of what is going on around us. True, the terms "extremely low frequency" or "dreamless sleep", normally called a Delta brain wave 1-4 hz today [instrumentation for the Delta brain wave had not yet been added to the Beta, Alpha, and Theta brain waves equipment at that time. Of course, biofeedback has come a long way since then with seven brainwaves now on record].

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 11, 2014

    Discussion with NP - Part 4
    In the same biofeedback lab with the Greens, I remember laying back on the 'chaise lounge EEG chair', falling asleep, then awakened by the Theta 'signal' during the time I was having a visual dream. As a result I have come to see my 'precognitive pictures while awake' as on the same continuum with my 'precognitive dreams while asleep'. The Theta signal sounded two or three times as I was having psychic 'news flashes'
    As to the lack of mental images, my external mental images came after conscious acceptance and evocation of joint anima-animus intelligence and energies. I remember a scientist at Itek's old Vidya lab in Stanford Research who first came up with reconnaissance space camera designs that are today common but may give us some bionic type ideas but in reverse. I'm just brainstorming but the idea may be worth exploring.
    RJ: “I suppose you could be somewhat accurate but to me yours is an inadequate picture, even reductionist [I am not totally anti-reductionist].”
    NP: "How is it inadequate? What do you mean that it’s reductionist and why is that a problem?"
    RJ: I think I answered your questions above. If not let me know.
    RJ: “Actually my view is a very rough layman's hypothetical. Picture if you will a map of ten temporal transparent spheres of omnipresent all-permeating mind-spirit ['Omni-Noetic' or 'Omni-Psi, if you want] consciousness.”
    NP: "All I’m picturing here is a bunch of word salad. It sounds like you might have borrowed this idea from the Kabbalistic Tree of Life."
    RJ: The Kabbalistic Tree of Life I've seen looks like a geometric design. Do you have MS-Publisher software? If so, and if interested in unscrambling the word salad, my graphic depicts the 10 realms as layered transparent spheres seated one within the other.
    Actually I got the idea from various sized Russian dolls seated one within the other from largest outside to smallest in the center. Later, I saw a child's toy in Toys 'R Us which looked like my concept of various sizes of transparent spheres seated one within another, just fewer spheres (5).
    “My underlying 'working hypothesis' is that the infinite is an omnipresent cosmic 'ocean' of ageless, transparent, mysterious Anima and Animus OmniMind, quantum, and electric energies.”
    NP: Reiterating your hypothesis does not make it any more convincing. Have you tried setting up tests that would disprove this hypothesis if it weren’t in fact true?
    RJ: I know stating my hypothesis doesn't make it more convincing but that is the best I can do under my present circumstances. I'm caregiver 24/7 for my wife with little time and financial resources for testing long expensive null hypotheses. Maybe in my next incarnation I can test it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 11, 2014

    Discussion with NP - Part 5
    RJ: For most practical purposes, as sure as I can be. Earlier in our discourse I gave you an example of a correlative precognitive [synchronicity] experience with an MBA student who showed me psychically a white mask with tufts of cotton.
    Also, an example of causation is the precognitive dream I recounted about going into my office to find the desk overturned, etc. predictive of a lay-off a few weeks later.
    I have many more of each, actually more correlative than causation type precognitive, and some could go could conceivably be a combination of both depending on one's interpretation of the more ambiguous aspects. Just let me know.
    [By the way, how about you, "are you sure about that?"]
    RJ: “Involuntarily conditioned psychological baggage more often than not can form barriers in one's personal unconscious which impede and/or totally block the realization of psychic abilities…The most effective way I know to remove such blockages is to consciously disidentify with them, transcend them, consciously look at and consciously decide if you want to keep them or not…. I did it through meditative affirmations such as I have shown you in earlier posts, keeping a dream journal, and deep meditation.”
    NP: A more plausible explanation is that your practice of mindful disassociation gave you regular practice at being aware of thinking processes going on in subconscious layers of your mind, while also allowing you to be less focused on usual attachments and more receptive to deeper levels of cognition.
    RW: You might have a point if I had had a "practice of mindful disassociation [which] gave [me] regular practice at being aware of thinking processes going on in subconscious layers of [my] mind, while also allowing [me] to be less focused on usual attachments and more receptive to deeper levels of cognition" prior to age 10.
    Actually I didn't have a memory, much less understanding, of the following correlative 'precognitive' dream until just about a year ago (my body is now 84). When my body was about 10 years old I was peering through a screen door at a big gorgeous full moon during a beautiful clear summer night when the cross-hatching in the screen gradually turned the very natural round moon into an outline of a cross, then finally into a full-blown Christian cross, same silvery-white color as the earlier shown full moon.

  • NoetPoet Feb 10, 2014

    Imagination is fine in and of itself. The problem is when people start to believe that imaginings either are reality or equivalent to it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Feb 10, 2014

    You are a scientist and think like a scientist.

    I have respect for science, but am not a scientist. I was attempting to have people enhance their subjective experience by exploring imagination……I.E. Is this possible? What if it is possible?

    I believe there is value in your methods and value in what I was attempting to accomplish. Yes, I was assuming the role of a clown, but if it contributed to others thinking on their own rather than being told what and how to think my sacrifice was worthwhile.

    Best wishes….Jim

  • NoetPoet Feb 10, 2014

    “I don’t feel qualified to start a topic on plant intelligence.”

    In what way are you not qualified to start a topic on plant intelligence? All you have to do to start such a topic is post a couple of links to relevant articles (if you want), give a brief introduction to the matter and ask for people’s comments. I’ve seen people start threads around here for far less worthy topics than plant intelligence.

    “I feel satisfied to have tossed the subject into Discussions and allow others to comment on it….while awaiting the retort by neuroscience to defend its position that a brain is required to manifest “cognition, communication, information processing, computation, learning, and memory”.”

    I assume you’re referring to Dustproduction here (where are you Dustproduction? Please come back). It might not be the case that a *brain* is required to manifest intelligence, however it would require some sort of mechanism (or mechanisms) of similar capability. Can the advocates of plant intelligence propose a plausible mechanism/s which explains how plants might have intelligence? Or will this turn out to be another “Canals On Mars” type of situation where the alleged phenomena is really just an illusion resulting from pareidolia and groupthink amongst the researchers?

    “My first impression is that “something” beyond our ability to conceptualize is employing “something” similar to telepathy that manifests the phenomena in the opening paragraph in plants. We must ask then, are humans under the influence of this “something” and do we really “possess” the phenomena mentioned in the opening paragraph.”

    First we must form a logical hypothesis about what this “something” is, and then we must test this hypothesis to see if this “something” has any basis in reality, and THEN we can ask if this “something” influences humans as well. It should be remembered that asking a question is *not* the same as answering it.

    "May I interject Live4themystery’s comment that consciousness may be an entity rather than a function and my response that this would mean that our earliest ancestors were invaded by a non-physical entity?"

    What evidence do you have that consciousness is a non-physical entity?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Feb 10, 2014

    NoetPoet,

    I don’t feel qualified to start a topic on plant intelligence. I feel satisfied to have tossed the subject into Discussions and allow others to comment on it….while awaiting the retort by neuroscience to defend its position that a brain is required to manifest “cognition, communication, information processing, computation, learning, and memory”.

    I intuit that the Intelligent Design people will also get involved in this debate which will really create a quagmire.

    My first impression is that “something” beyond our ability to conceptualize is employing “something” similar to telepathy that manifests the phenomena in the opening paragraph in plants.

    We must ask then, are humans under the influence of this “something” and do we really “possess” the phenomena mentioned in the opening paragraph.

    This brings us full circle to the mystic position that there is no self and the notion that we humans can possess anything is delusional.

    In fact, is the designation “human” only a temporary concept until we come up with something more appropriate…..like bipedal biological entity?

    May I interject Live4themystery’s comment that consciousness may be an entity rather than a function and my response that this would mean that our earliest ancestors were invaded by a non-physical entity?

    I have reached the plateau of my conceptual skills, so if you wish to expand on this please do so by addressing your comments to the masses of Discussions and not to me directly. I’m still seeking to be certain that my ducks are in a row…..quack, quack.

  • NoetPoet Feb 09, 2014

    The possibility of plant intelligence sounds interesting in its own right, so why not just start a new thread about intelligence in plants?

    That said, your notion that plant intelligence relates to psychic abilities in humans actually does bring up a highly relevant point: people (especially believers) tend to lump a whole lot of different ideas and phenomena under the label “psychic”. These include:

    • seeing the future
    • seeing/hearing/smelling things in the present that are beyond the range of the physical senses
    • reading minds
    • recalling past lives
    • palmistry
    • tarot card readings
    • astrology readings
    • synchronicities
    • hunches and intuitions
    • Deja-vu
    • energy healing
    • out-of-body experiences
    • perceiving auras
    • communicating with the dead
    • communicating with non-human non-corporeal beings
    • psychokinesis
    • intelligent communication with plants

    The fact that such disparate phenomena are all regarded as "psychic" strongly suggests that the term is really just a taxonomical dumping ground for mind-related phenomena that we don’t understand yet. In this sense, “psychic” is similar to the term “magic”.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Feb 09, 2014

    I find myself apologizing a lot recently, perhaps it’s time to take a break from Discussions and reassess my assumptions.

    You two are discussing what could be referred to as paranormal or mystical qualities that humans are gifted with and I saw the evolving paradigm related to plants as related to your discussion.

    Please forgive my attempted intrusion into your exchanges, I see you both as touching the soul of the mystic and over estimated our connectedness.

    As the great bard once said, it’s important to keep the imagination sane, something I have failed to do.

    I may not be posting to for a while, until I am certain that my ducks are in a row.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Feb 08, 2014

    “I think you should discuss it in another thread where it's more relevant to the subject at hand.”

    I hadn't planned on discussing it, I simply asked what you two thought about it.

    I’ll respect your authority as author of this topic and back off until I find a place in Discussions where it is appropriate to ask for you’re and Bob’s opinion.

  • NoetPoet Feb 08, 2014

    "What do you two think of this emerging paradigm where plants are much more intelligent and much more like us than most people think—capable of cognition, communication, information processing, computation, learning, and memory?"

    I think you should discuss it in another thread where it's more relevant to the subject at hand.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Feb 08, 2014


    Attempting to follow the dialogue between you two transports me to the cosmic amusement park of conceptual thought.

    I really don’t feel qualified to participate; conceptual thought creates a strain on my psyche.

    Shifting to a more grounded reality, I’m working on a humorous script in which participants in Discussions and IONS staff plays various roles.
    I’m currently exploring imagination for parts that would be suitable for kevala, frequencytuner, Dean Radin and Michelle Riddle.

    It may be something that HBO would be interested in.

    Of course I have a history of dropping projects before completion.

    What do you two think of this emerging paradigm where plants are much more intelligent and much more like us than most people think—capable of cognition, communication, information processing, computation, learning, and memory?

  • NoetPoet Feb 08, 2014

    “ Yes and No. Yes to the "uniquely accurate 'psychic' prediction for [me]". Please be more specific in your reference to ". . . heightened sensitivity to ordinary sensory data mentioned above . . ." No one else had a similar vision. I don't know, Dean, about the "statistically unusual" reference you made.”

    You think I’m Dean Radin? What gave you that idea? I assure you that I’m not Dean. The heightened sensitivity is just that – a greater sensitivity to five-sense information brought about by a calm environment and a focused mind. Your vision does not seem to be statistically unusual because when we consider 1) how many visions of such accuracy you have had in your life (even though you have dedicated much effort to cultivating psychic awareness) and 2) that no one else in the healing group had a similarly impressive vision.

    “My only past experiences of seeing inside an actual human body by way of X-ray pictures was my own body.”

    That would have been enough to shape your mind’s perception of what it looks like to see inside an actual human body. You might have also seen pictures of x-ray photos in books or on posters in hospitals etc. before the experiment.

    “RJ: It's possible but I don't know how probable your speculation might be valid, not to mention reliable.
    Not being a EE like you, my best guess is that it may have been my subconscious mind receiving very low hertz signals (ELF under 4 hz) converting them [telemetering-like] to 'paravisualized' X-ray-like pictures in my occipital lobe unconsciously sent [or maybe consciously if she wanted someone to receive her call for help on the outside chance she might avert terminal leukemia] sent after 'telemetered' into under 4hz signals from within the patient's subconscious mind. [I apologize for the perhaps seeming circumlocuted preceding sentence. Hope it's clear enough].”

    I have never seen or heard of any evidence that any part of the human brain being able to pick up Extremely Low Frequency radio waves, let alone interpret them as mental images. So this doesn’t sound like a more plausible hypothesis.

  • NoetPoet Feb 08, 2014

    “I suppose you could be somewhat accurate but to me yours is an inadequate picture, even reductionist [I am not totally anti-reductionist].”

    How is it inadequate? What do you mean that it’s reductionist and why is that a problem?

    “Actually my view is a very rough layman's hypothetical. Picture if you will a map of ten temporal transparent spheres of omnipresent all-permeating mind-spirit ['Omni-Noetic' if you want] consciousness.”

    All I’m picturing here is a bunch of word salad. It sounds like you might have borrowed this idea from the Kabbalistic Tree of Life.

    “ My underlying 'working hypothesis' is that the infinite is an omnipresent cosmic 'ocean' of ageless, transparent, mysterious Anima and Animus OmniMind, quantum, and electric energies.”

    Reiterating your hypothesis does not make it any more convincing. Have you tried setting up tests that would disprove this hypothesis if it weren’t in fact true?

    “ She came knowing her leukemia was probably terminal.”

    Then there would have almost certainly been some physical signs of her condition, though they may have only been noticeable to a careful observer.

    “ With all due respect, I could not have produced the "psychic abilities" I have used everyday without the authorship of our omnipresent Anima and Animus Co-Source of All.”

    How do you know that?

    “ When I was a child I often confused correlation with causation, when I became a mature adult I put away childish things such as….(SNIP)”

    Are you sure about that?

    “Involuntarily conditioned psychological baggage more often than not can form barriers in one's personal unconscious which impede and/or totally block the realization of psychic abilities…The most effective way I know to remove such blockages is to consciously disidentify with them, transcend them, consciously look at and consciously decide if you want to keep them or not…. I did it through meditative affirmations such as I have shown you in earlier posts, keeping a dream journal, and deep meditation.”

    A more plausible explanation is that your practice of mindful disassociation gave you regular practice at being aware of thinking processes going on in subconscious layers of your mind, while also allowing you to be less focused on usual attachments and more receptive to deeper levels of cognition.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 07, 2014

    Ongoing Discourse with Dean, Ooops! I mean NP 
    NP: “I was absolutely stunned as I had never experienced anything like that before, even in healing services in the church I attended as a boy or later in theological school. Nor had I joined the psychic healing group with the intention of paravisually perceiving anything akin to diagnosing a disease, let alone on the level of bone marrow.”
    So it sounds like this was a uniquely accurate “psychic” prediction for you. Considering the heightened sensitivity to ordinary sensory data mentioned above, and that you haven’t mentioned anyone else in the healer group having a similarly remarkable vision, your vision of her condition doesn’t seem statistically unusual (or to put it more bluntly, even a broken clock is right twice a day).
    RJ: Yes and No. Yes to the "uniquely accurate 'psychic' prediction for [me]". Please be more specific in your reference to ". . . heightened sensitivity to ordinary sensory data mentioned above . . ." No one else had a similar vision. I don't know, Dean, about the "statistically unusual" reference you made.

    NP: “He said, "Bob, what you saw is similar to what radiologists see on X-rays of people suffering from leukemia." Since then I shared the experience with a retired radiologist who is a longtime regular participant in our IONS community group. He confirmed what the research director had said.”
    As I said before, your vision probably looked like an X-ray because most of your past experiences of seeing inside an actual human body would have been by way of X-ray pictures.
    RJ: My only past experiences of seeing inside an actual human body by way of X-ray pictures was my own body.

    NP: "Your subconscious mind utilised this past experience, combined it with five-sense data from the patient, and then made an educated guess using an X-ray picture as its visual template."
    RJ: It's possible but I don't know how probable your speculation might be valid, not to mention reliable. Not being a EE like you, my best guess is that it may have been my subconscious mind receiving very low hertz signals (ELF under 4 hz) converting them [telemetering-like] to 'paravisualized' X-ray-like pictures in my occipital lobe unconsciously sent [or maybe consciously if she wanted someone to receive her call for help on the outside chance she might avert terminal leukemia] sent after 'telemetered' into under 4hz signals from within the patient's subconscious mind. [I apologize for the perhaps seeming circumlocuted preceding sentence. Hope it's clear enough].

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 07, 2014

    Part 2
    NP: “In retrospect I see this experience as a never-to-be-forgotten watershed for it made me acutely aware of the vital importance of consciously recognizing my Oneness with the All, not only in special situations but continuously throughout my entire life experience. That, of course, means constant interconnectedness and intercommunications on both sensory and parasensory levels with every other entity within our all-encompassing, all-permeating Source of All being.”

    This sounds like another expedient truth: your belief in Oneness compels you to be more aware of your five-sense data and more receptive to your subconscious mind’s interpretations of that data. Thus you have a self-fulfilling prophecy, where the perception of being attuned encourages you to be more mentally attuned to your surroundings, which in turn reinforces the perception of oneness.

    RJ: Referencing your statement, "This sounds like another expedient truth: your belief in Oneness compels you to be more aware of your five-sense data and more receptive to your subconscious mind’s interpretations of that data."
    I suppose you could be somewhat accurate but to me yours is an inadequate picture, even reductionist [I am not totally anti-reductionist].

    Actually my view is a very rough layman's hypothetical. Picture if you will a map of ten temporal transparent spheres of omnipresent all-permeating mind-spirit ['Omni-Noetic' if you want] consciousness. My underlying 'working hypothesis' is that the infinite is an omnipresent cosmic 'ocean' of ageless, transparent, mysterious Anima and Animus OmniMind, quantum, and electric energies. Anima and Animus intelligences, equally important in principle, are complementary opposite co-sources and common denominators of integral transtemporal and temporal integrally health-based conscious knowledge, wisdom, and full functioning within and around, and making themselves manifest temporally in all ten spheres:
    0 - center sphere - zero-point field - omnipresent conscious timeless anima-animus mind
    1- electric, quantum, electric, gravitational, strong and weak nuclear, etc. fields blended together with center sphere
    2 - photons, atomic particles/atoms
    3 - molecules
    4 - bio-organisms [including yours]
    5 - social cultures
    6 - planet earth
    7 - ecosystem
    8 - solar system
    9 - milky way galaxy
    10 our universe
    0 zero-point field - omnipresent conscious timeless anima-animus mind

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 07, 2014

    Part 3
    I suggest you reflect on this map [or one you want to compose for yourself] of ten nested transparent temporal spheres of omnipresent mind-spirit consciousness starting within the center zero-point field sphere, then progressively sphere by sphere on out and back in again. Let come into your consciousness whatever you want and/or whatever comes in willy-nilly. Share with family/friends your impressions and decide what you want to do with the data, if anything, you want to do.

    Further, I suppose one could describe my experience that way if you realize that I interpret "self-fulfilling prophecy'' as nothing more than a semi-structured psycho-organic self-management task process I teach leader-managers to use for an integral self-management-leadership of others process which simplified is a feedback loop starting with: clarify objectives, plan steps to meet objectives, take action to achieve objectives, detect unplanned problems, solve problems, make adjustments to come back on target, evaluate progress against objectives to date, return to start as wanted/needed. Of course interpersonal communications processes are blended with the psycho-organic task processes and processes. [I teach integral humanistic situational self-management-leadership using experiential real time simulations of the processes outlined above including integration of dualities learned from my own psycho-spiritual insights].

    NP: “In the Vancouver woman's case her leukemia had progressed beyond the point of return.”
    You mean it was at this stage when she went to see your group? In that case there would have certainly been some five-sense clues to her condition that could be picked up by a focused observer.
    RJ: She came knowing her leukemia was probably terminal.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 07, 2014

    Ongoing Discourse with NP - Part 1
    NP: “In my experience I was unable to qualify for "the gifts of the spirit" or "siddhis" ("psychic abilities") until I cleared my psyche of my involuntarily learned/enculturated psychological baggage through a process of disidentification with temporal forms thereby identifying psychospiritually with the ALL.”
    That might have been your experience, but I wonder if:
    1) Your psychic abilities really are psychic abilities, or just (another) product of your fertile imagination
    RJ: With all due respect, I could not have produced the "psychic abilities" I have used everyday without the authorship of our omnipresent Anima and Animus Co-Source of All.

    NP: 2) Even assuming your psychic abilities are real, how do you know you haven’t confused correlation with causation?
    RJ: When I was a child I often confused correlation with causation, when I became a mature adult I put away childish things such as letting my baggage, like involuntarily conditioned psychospiritual identifications, attachments, beliefs, etc. manage me, and I identified with the transtemporal omnipresent Anima and Animus co-source of all that's transtemporal and temporal who allow me the freedom to choose and manage my baggage as I want. I could not have enjoyed the quantitative and qualitative successes I have since adolescence without having become cognitively and experientially the free mature adult mind-spirit who freely consciously chooses and manages my baggage as I wish.

    NP: 3) You can provide any plausible explanation for why getting rid of psychological baggage would lead to psychic abilities, given that people can develop exceptional capabilities in other pursuits which demand a lot of mental effort (e.g. music, science, philosophy, art) without having to let go of their psychological baggage first?
    RJ: First for clarification purposes, when you say, "You can provide any plausible explanation for why getting rid of psychological baggage would lead to psychic abilities . . ." I assume you meant to ask a question something like, 'Can you provide any plausible explanation for why getting rid of psychological baggage would lead to psychic abilities . . .?" Am I correct? Assuming I am correct, I will proceed to answer your question.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 07, 2014

    Part 2
    Involuntarily conditioned psychological baggage more often than not can form barriers in one's personal unconscious which impede and/or totally block the realization of psychic abilities. Such blockages have an insidious way of managing one's life as "unconscious motivations" and the like. The most effective way I know to remove such blockages is to consciously disidentify with them, transcend them, consciously look at and consciously decide if you want to keep them or not. If you consciously want to keep the former blockage/piece of luggage you have in effect consciously taken charge of its management [at least momentarily], it is no longer managing you for you are now in charge of your life and your baggage. Now that is a simplistic description of the process for consciously taking charge of your life. In my case, the roots of my psychological baggage were so deep in my personal unconscious it literally took me years to consciously clean it all out of my psyche (soul, self). I did it through meditative affirmations such as I have shown you in earlier posts, keeping a dream journal, and deep meditation. You can do it too if you are willing to put in the time and work. Possibly, you may not have as much deeply rooted baggage as I did [shall we call them 'rootabagas'? ].

    NP: 4) You just traded old baggage in for new baggage?
    RJ: My way of putting it is that I have taken conscious responsibility and accountability for the management of involuntarily conditioned old baggage which had been managing my life. And accordingly, I can consciously choose to take on new baggage and manage it as I so choose. Later I may consciously decide to let it go partially or entirely. The key thing now is I am consciously free to manage my decision making for health or for ill.

    NP: “Are you refusing to believe you have psychological baggage? If so, you are the only one I know of who has been so 'fortunate'. Or maybe you have some psychospiritual blindspots to come to bring to conscious awareness, what say???”
    You’re putting words in my mouth again. Going through life without accumulating any psychological baggage would be the biggest miracle of all! I’m sure I do have psychological blindspots, but kidding myself into thinking I’ve got psychic powers isn’t one of them.

    RJ: I believe I've responded to this issue. I never want to put words in your mouth. That's your job.

  • NoetPoet Feb 06, 2014

    Part 1 of 4

    “The higher order is not a 'clinging to' but rather a free integrally healthful and full functioning state of being.”

    Judging from what you’ve written on this forum, I would say that you are actually clinging to a pleasant perception.

    “ I know I didn't invent this transcendent state of being because our omnipresent psychospiritual guides announced I had "arrived in clear state of consciousness free from domination of identifications, etc." when after about five years of identification-disidentitification-transcending-inclusion of formerly involuntarily conditioned identifications, attachments, addictions, etc. which were managing me are now in this transcendent state options which I manage. Huge difference! “

    So what you’re saying is that you know you’re special state of mind was real because the voices in your head said it was? Okaaay…..
    Given that you intensively practiced a form of mindful dissociation for 5 years, it is not at all surprising that you now have more control over your attachments etc than you did when you started this practice. There really is no need to resort to divine/supernatural explanations for this.

    “Confirmation of this state is the fact that for the last seven-teen years I have been completely free of disease and dysfunction associated with older calendar age.”

    Again, we do not need to appeal to transcendental/supernatural influences to explain this. Your dissociation from attachments probably lowered your overall stress levels, which in turn reduced the wear and tear that your body might have otherwise undergone. You practice could have also coincided with or prompted beneficial changes in your diet and lifestyle, and it is common knowledge that good diet and lifestyle are helpful in countering the effects of disease and ageing.

    “RJ: Interesting. Okay, let's test your hypothesis with the following case incident.
    Our group was a mix of ten women and men, some psychotherapists, others professional healers, one graduate student, and myself. Our purpose was to learn to use LeShan's innovative Type II non-physical-touch healing method and experiment with applying it first to our group members, then live patients.
    The first day and a half was spent meditating on our group's Oneness with the All, practicing the non-touch healing method on each other, skinny-dipping in the secluded pool, lolling about in the sun, and, of course, eating Kentucky Fried (in those days we didn't know how unhealthful it was).”

  • NoetPoet Feb 06, 2014

    Part 2 of 4

    So you were all psyching each other up, developing a strong collective sense that what you were doing was real, whilst indulging in hedonistic pleasures in one and other’s company. Okay, to each their own. It’s very interesting though that none of you ‘sensed’ that KFC was unhealthy…

    “The last day and a half was spent applying Type II healing with three patients who had heard about us and offered to participate in our experiment in using Larry's healing process. Other than one woman from Vancouver, Washington, all patients were from the surrounding Greater Miami area. Their identities and reported maladies were kept secret until after the healing experiment with us was complete.”

    So if these patients knew about your group and volunteered to take part, don’t you think there could be just a wee bit of room for power of suggestion to play a role in the healing experiments?

    “Each patient sat one at a time with us in the circle but with their back to us. This was meant to minimize influencing our patients by our body language and, conversely, their influencing us with theirs. “

    That doesn’t sound like a very good attempt at double-blind experimentation. You and the other healers could still read the patient’s facial expressions when they walked in and see their body language even when they had their backs to you. You could have also seen what they were wearing and any unusual bodily features (e.g. lack of hair, unusually pale skin) of these, and this data could have been detected and used by you (at least subconsciously) to make clever inferences about what was wrong with them.

    “The healing session of fifteen minutes called for meditating in complete silence on our Oneness with each other within the context of our omnipresent all-permeating All. “

    This sounds like nothing more than a glorified way of calming and focusing the mind. People tend to perform complex tasks best when their mind is focused, and how they achieve that focus (whether contemplating transcendent things or not) is beside the point.

  • NoetPoet Feb 06, 2014

    Part 3 of 4

    “During a healing meeting for a woman in her mid-fifties we meditated, as with our other two patients, on our Oneness with the All. Never having experienced a paravisualization except in solo lucid dreaming, I thought I was hallucinating. I saw what appeared to be the woman's spinal column and rib cage in grayish black with bone marrow that was dimly lit like a dim light shining through rock salt might appear. All that emerged from her body for a second or two as she sat with her back to me. I thought to myself 'well that's interesting I'll have something to share with the patient and the group later.' I had no clue as to how valid and reliable the paravisualization might be.”

    The way this woman walked and sat might have given a hint that she had some issue relating to the bones in her upper body. Dogs can apparently smell tumours, so maybe it’s possible that humans can subconsciously smell them as well (especially if they’re in states of heightened calm and focus). Her clothing and hair (or lack thereof) might have also hinted at her condition. Your mind, in its calmed state, would have been better able to detect this data which would otherwise have been drowned out by other stimuli and concerns. If you’d had a basic knowledge of what leukaemia was before the exercise and had seen X-rays before, then your unusually calm and focused mind would have been able to subconsciously integrate this prior general knowledge with subtle but ordinary sensory data from the woman and form a visual hypothesis of her condition which was then presented to your conscious mind, which interpreted it as a psychic vision.

    “Our patients had agreed with Larry before hand not to give any clues about which of the sharings meant anything to them until we all had shared our experiences.”

    Even if they consciously tried to honour that agreement, it doesn’t mean that they didn’t communicate key information to you unwittingly. I’ve read that 80% of human communication is non-verbal (i.e. through voice tone and body language).

  • NoetPoet Feb 06, 2014

    (Part 4 of 4)

    “I was absolutely stunned as I had never experienced anything like that before, even in healing services in the church I attended as a boy or later in theological school. Nor had I joined the psychic healing group with the intention of paravisually perceiving anything akin to diagnosing a disease, let alone on the level of bone marrow.”

    So it sounds like this was a uniquely accurate “psychic” prediction for you. Considering the heightened sensitivity to ordinary sensory data mentioned above, and that you haven’t mentioned anyone else in the healer group having a similarly remarkable vision, your vision of her condition doesn’t seem statistically unusual (or to put it more bluntly, even a broken clock is right twice a day).

    “He said, "Bob, what you saw is similar to what radiologists see on X-rays of people suffering from leukemia." Since then I shared the experience with a retired radiologist who is a longtime regular participant in our IONS community group. He confirmed what the research director had said.”

    As I said before, your vision probably looked like an X-ray because most of your past experiences of seeing inside an actual human body would have been by way of X-ray pictures. Your subconscious mind utilised this past experience, combined it with five-sense data from the patient, and then made an educated guess using an X-ray picture as its visual template.

    “In retrospect I see this experience as a never-to-be-forgotten watershed for it made me acutely aware of the vital importance of consciously recognizing my Oneness with the All, not only in special situations but continuously throughout my entire life experience. That, of course, means constant interconnectedness and intercommunications on both sensory and parasensory levels with every other entity within our all-encompassing, all-permeating Source of All being.”

    This sounds like another expedient truth: your belief in Oneness compels you to be more aware of your five-sense data and more receptive to your subconscious mind’s interpretations of that data. Thus you have a self-fulfilling prophecy, where the perception of being attuned encourages you to be more mentally attuned to your surroundings, which in turn reinforces the perception of oneness.

    “In the Vancouver woman's case her leukemia had progressed beyond the point of return.”

    You mean it was at this stage when she went to see your group? In that case there would have certainly been some five-sense clues to her condition that could be picked up by a focused observer.

  • NoetPoet Feb 06, 2014

    “In my experience I was unable to qualify for "the gifts of the spirit" or "siddhis" ("psychic abilities") until I cleared my psyche of my involuntarily learned/enculturated psychological baggage through a process of disidentification with temporal forms thereby identifying psychospiritually with the ALL.”

    That might have been your experience, but I wonder if:
    1) Your psychic abilities really are psychic abilities, or just (another) product of your fertile imagination
    2) Even assuming your psychic abilities are real, how do you know you haven’t confused correlation with causation?
    3) You can provide any plausible explanation for why getting rid of psychological baggage would lead to psychic abilities, given that people can develop exceptional capabilities in other pursuits which demand a lot of mental effort (e.g. music, science, philosophy, art) without having to let go of their psychological baggage first?
    4) You just traded old baggage in for new baggage?

    “Are you refusing to believe you have psychological baggage? If so, you are the only one I know of who has been so 'fortunate'. Or maybe you have some psychospiritual blindspots to come to bring to conscious awareness, what say???”

    You’re putting words in my mouth again. Going through life without accumulating any psychological baggage would be the biggest miracle of all! I’m sure I do have psychological blindspots, but kidding myself into thinking I’ve got psychic powers isn’t one of them.

  • NoetPoet Feb 06, 2014

    “I have reliable evidence in the Omnipresence of the ALL feminine life [anima] and masculine life [animus] intelligences evident within and around each of us that coordinates and facilitates our growth in consciousness, our integral health, and full functioning as well as providing options for personal care and feeding day by day, night by night. They are always within us and around us on call to give us counsel and advice when things get rough and we may need a friend or two. I call that LOVE.”

    This is a subjective perception on your part; there is no compelling reason to believe that it is anything other than a figment of your imagination. There is no empirical scientific evidence for this “Omnipresence”, nor has it been hypothesised or identified by any other person past or present. Elaborate imaginings don’t even come close to constituting an eternal self. Even if your Omnipresence wasn’t just an invention of your imagination, it is hard to see how one could regard it as one’s “self” in any meaningful way: if it pervades and underlies *everything*, then what about it is fundamentally and uniquely “you”? You might as well make the same claim about the fabric of space-time, or the protons that make up your body.

    “Tell me how you arrive at three words when I named four functions: thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition. You have a right to your opinion that they, whether three or four, "mean the same thing" and I have a right to my experience, that my four functions have related but different meanings depending on the situation at hand. “

    I arrived at three words because you said that psyche, soul and being are synonyms. I never said that your four functions were the same thing, obviously they’re not.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 06, 2014

    Continuing Discussion with NoetPoet Part 1 - NP: Cleared, emptied, whatever. But even if you clear your mind of temporal phenomena, is it not just a higher order error to then cling to (what you believe to be) transcendent phenomena? Again, how do you know they’re really transcendent and how do you know you just didn’t invent that perception after the fact?
    RJ: The higher order is not a 'clinging to' but rather a free integrally healthful and full functioning state of being. I know I didn't invent this transcendent state of being because our omnipresent psychospiritual guides announced I had "arrived in clear state of consciousness free from domination of identifications, etc." when after about five years of identification-disidentitification-transcending-inclusion of formerly involuntarily conditioned identifications, attachments, addictions, etc. which were managing me are now in this transcendent state options which I manage. Huge difference! Confirmation of this state is the fact that for the last seven-teen years I have been completely free of disease and dysfunction associated with older calendar age.

    As to predictions, I have experienced parasensual predictions of the following kinds:
    1) Predictions I later discovered to my chagrin were merely projections of my own wishes.
    2) Predictions which originated in some other person's planning
    3) Predictions which originated in the consciousness of our social system
    4) Predictions which may have originated in the minds of ecosystem watchers.”

    NP: The first kind of prediction needs no explanation; however I think that such predictions are far more common even amongst renowned psychics than most believers are willing to admit.
    RJ: I prefer not to judge any "Psychic". I do not use their services so I have no need to evaluate them.

    NP: The second kind of prediction [in the context of social system] doesn’t require any paranormal means of obtaining knowledge at all. If you successfully predict that someone is about to do something, then it’s probably because you’ve been subconsciously picking up on subtle changes in their behaviour as well as other clues in your environment. Your subconscious mind uses this information to calculate likely outcomes, and when your conscious mind becomes aware of these calculations it interprets them as “predictions” because it can’t allow itself to believe that the subconscious mind has such powerful (and vastly superior) computational abilities.
    RJ: Interesting. Okay, let's test your hypothesis with the following case incident.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 06, 2014

    Part 2 - The context for this experience was a leading-edge group psychic healing workshop. It was designed and led by renowned research scientist and clinical psychologist Lawrence LeShan and held after the 1970 Association for Humanistic Psychology conference in Miami.

    SOME BACKGROUND. At the time I was an organization development consultant to business and health care organizations, and an adjunct professor teaching MBA students. Not understanding that organization development consultants are basically integral organization psychotherapists and some like myself have training and experience in depth psychology as well as group dynamics and large systems transformation, Larry LeShan initially felt I wouldn't be compatible with the group because he associated me with the Fortune 500 world and I didn't present myself as a 'psychotherapist' or 'psychic healer'. But having heard me speak during the AHP conference, Margaret Adams felt strongly I would not only fit in but be a useful addition. Finally, after much discussion Larry acquiesced and somewhat reluctantly accepted me into his experimental psychic healing group.

    OUR PSYCHIC HEALING GROUP. Our group was a mix of ten women and men, some psychotherapists, others professional healers, one graduate student, and myself. Our purpose was to learn to use LeShan's innovative Type II non-physical-touch healing method and experiment with applying it first to our group members, then live patients.

    The first day and a half was spent meditating on our group's Oneness with the All, practicing the non-touch healing method on each other, skinny-dipping in the secluded pool, lolling about in the sun, and, of course, eating Kentucky Fried (in those days we didn't know how unhealthful it was).

    The last day and a half was spent applying Type II healing with three patients who had heard about us and offered to participate in our experiment in using Larry's healing process. Other than one woman from Vancouver, Washington, all patients were from the surrounding Greater Miami area. Their identities and reported maladies were kept secret until after the healing experiment with us was complete.

    Each patient sat one at a time with us in the circle but with their back to us. This was meant to minimize influencing our patients by our body language and, conversely, their influencing us with theirs.

    The healing session of fifteen minutes called for meditating in complete silence on our Oneness with each other within the context of our omnipresent all-permeating All.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 06, 2014

    Part 3 - During a healing meeting for a woman in her mid-fifties we meditated, as with our other two patients, on our Oneness with the All. Never having experienced a paravisualization except in solo lucid dreaming, I thought I was hallucinating. I saw what appeared to be the woman's spinal column and rib cage in grayish black with bone marrow that was dimly lit like a dim light shining through rock salt might appear. All that emerged from her body for a second or two as she sat with her back to me. I thought to myself 'well that's interesting I'll have something to share with the patient and the group later.' I had no clue as to how valid and reliable the paravisualization might be.

    Upon completion of our Oneness with the All healing meditation Larry had requested that we remain silent until it came our time to share with the group what we had experienced. Our patients had agreed with Larry before hand not to give any clues about which of the sharings meant anything to them until we all had shared our experiences. When the conclusion of all group participants' sharings came each patient was invited to introduce themselves and disclose why they had come for healing.

    So when it came my turn to share what I had experienced during our healing meditation of our Oneness with the All and the middle-aged woman patient, I described what appeared to be the woman's spinal column and rib cage in grayish black with bone marrow that was dimly lit like a dim light shining through rock salt might appear. All that emerged from her body for a second or two as she sat with her back to me. Acting contrary to Larry's instruction, the patient appeared shocked and gasped aloud, then put her hand over her mouth.
    Later, after all in our healing group had shared their experiences, the patient shared hers. Then she looked directly at me and exclaimed, "And Bob you saw my leukemia! I didn't tell even Larry about the leukemia because I was told by my physician it was beyond healing (she had told Larry she had arthritis in one knee). Further, I didn't think anyone would detect it."

    I was absolutely stunned as I had never experienced anything like that before, even in healing services in the church I attended as a boy or later in theological school. Nor had I joined the psychic healing group with the intention of paravisually perceiving anything akin to diagnosing a disease, let alone on the level of bone marrow.

    Upon 'graduation' our group separated and went our own ways, the woman with the leukemia back to Vancouver and I back to Concord, MA. to my busy life of organization development consulting and professor. We had planned to keep in touch through Larry LeShan, but as you may recall, in 1970 it was more difficult to maintain contact than it would be today (at least that is our excuse) with the availability of email, etc. I heard nothing until news came she had died.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 06, 2014

    Part 4 - INDEPENDENT REALITY-CHECK. A year or so later I was facilitating an integral leadership teambuilding workshop for executive physicians from a large HMO. Over lunch one day I felt moved to risk my reputation as a "safe and sane professional" and recounted my first healing story to a medical research director seated next to me.

    I no sooner got to the part where I saw her spinal column and rib cage with the eerie looking light coming through bone marrow when he interjected confident and excited, "Leukemia". Surprised, I asked him how he knew because I hadn't given him so much as a hint. He said, "Bob, what you saw is similar to what radiologists see on X-rays of people suffering from leukemia." Since then I shared the experience with a retired radiologist who is a longtime regular participant in our IONS community group. He confirmed what the research director had said.

    THINGS I LEARNED. In retrospect I see this experience as a never-to-be-forgotten watershed for it made me acutely aware of the vital importance of consciously recognizing my Oneness with the All, not only in special situations but continuously throughout my entire life experience. That, of course, means constant interconnectedness and intercommunications on both sensory and parasensory levels with every other entity within our all-encompassing, all-permeating Source of All being. Second, it was signifi-cant for me in that it made me more aware of the availability of and importance of remaining open to all such paravisual phenomena without having to go into trance and all that entails. Nor was I recognizably drained of energy by the experience. And third, this experience was significant because it made me conscious that even if I parasensorily see such diagnostic images it doesn't necessarily mean the individual would be healed of their malady, no matter how much Oneness we achieved and faith therein was activated. For example, in the Vancouver woman's case her leukemia had progressed beyond the point of return. It was a good reminder that early detection is vital. Fourth, this experience was significant for me because it gave me a greater appreciation of the validity-checking power of the paravisual imagery. Before this experience, I had had innumerable paraaudio, paratouching, and a few parasmell and parataste experiences but most tended to be very ambiguous and therefore required much diambiguation as to what, where, who, when, and with what affect. But add the paravisual to the other four and suddenly my overall parasensory perception acuity improved manifold. Needless to say, my confidence in my parasensory discernment is now close to 100% when paravisual images accompany the other parasensations. Last, it was crucial for me to realize I do not need to go into trance to experience paranormal perceptions, including paravisual images. As long as I am in a state of conscious Oneness with the All, paravisual images are there if I'm open to them..

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 06, 2014

    hello

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 06, 2014

    NoetPoet
    First Segment
    Thank you for your comments and questions. Very stimulating.

    NP "Psychic" visions can also be a combination of the types that you mentioned.
    RJ: Yes, that's true, they usually are.

    NP: “What reliable evidence can you cite which disproves the existence of an eternal self.”
    What reliable evidence do you have that an eternal self does exist?
    RJ: I have reliable evidence in the Omnipresence of the ALL feminine life [anima] and masculine life [animus] intelligences evident within and around each of us that coordinates and facilitates our growth in consciousness, our integral health, and full functioning as well as providing options for personal care and feeding day by day, night by night. They are always within us and around us on call to give us counsel and advice when things get rough and we may need a friend or two. I call that LOVE.

    NP: You’re the one who made a positive claim (about there being an eternal self), so the burden of proof is on you. If you cannot provide compelling evidence for your claim, then there is no more reason for me to believe it than there is for me to believe in unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    RJ: I only need repeat my affirmation above.

    NP: “As to psyche, soul, being they to me are synonyms. I have found Carl Jung's definition of the psyche as including four functions: thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition as useful for starters. “
    So why use all three words if they mean the same thing? All of those functions you talk about are fundamentally impersonal, impermanent, and biologically-based processes.
    RJ: Tell me how you arrive at three words when I named four functions: thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition. You have a right to your opinion that they, whether three or four, "mean the same thing" and I have a right to my experience, that my four functions have related but different meanings depending on the situation at hand.

    NP: “ Please tell me in what way(s) my response is "’irrelevant to the topic at hand.’”
    The topic of this thread is the nature of psychic abilities, not how to deal with psychological baggage.
    RJ: In my experience I was unable to qualify for "the gifts of the spirit" or "siddhis" ("psychic abilities") until I cleared my psyche of my involuntarily learned/enculturated psychological baggage through a process of disidentification with temporal forms thereby identifying psychospiritually with the ALL. Are you refusing to believe you have psychological baggage? If so, you are the only one I know of who has been so 'fortunate'. Or maybe you have some psychospiritual blindspots to come to bring to conscious awareness, what say???

    Yours toward mutual conscious experience of respect, empathy, understanding, knowledge, wisdom, integral health, and full functioning

  • NoetPoet Feb 04, 2014

    PS "Psychic" visions can also be a combination of the types that you mentioned.

  • NoetPoet Feb 04, 2014

    (Part 1 of 3)

    “What reliable evidence can you cite which disproves the existence of an eternal self.”

    What reliable evidence do you have that an eternal self does exist? You’re the one who made a positive claim (about there being an eternal self), so the burden of proof is on you. If you cannot provide compelling evidence for your claim, then there is no more reason for me to believe it than there is for me to believe in unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I will say this much though: I am confident that anything which you propose to be the eternal self can easily be shown to be neither eternal nor, in any meaningful way, a “self.”

    “As to psyche, soul, being they to me are synonyms. I have found Carl Jung's definition of the psyche as including four functions: thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition as useful for starters. “

    So why use all three words if they mean the same thing? All of those functions you talk about are fundamentally impersonal, impermanent, and biologically-based processes.

    “ Please tell me in what way(s) my response is "’irrelevant to the topic at hand.’”

    The topic of this thread is the nature of psychic abilities, not how to deal with psychological baggage.

  • NoetPoet Feb 04, 2014

    (Part 2 of 3)

    “Yes, I've heard that argument before but please take careful heed to my words, "Once you have cleared your eternal mind-spirit soul of all your temporal identifications, attachments, addictions, habits, and/or hang-ups " I have not used the words "emptied your mind". I agree one cannot entirely empty one's mind, but one can clear their personal unconscious realm of mind of involuntarily conditioned contents. To my surprise I discovered that my personal unconscious realm of mind became, as it is now, my co-conscious realm of mind.”

    Cleared, emptied, whatever. But even if you clear your mind of temporal phenomena, is it not just a higher order error to then cling to (what you believe to be) transcendent phenomena? Again, how do you know they’re really transcendent and how do you know you just didn’t invent that perception after the fact?

    How convenient that many are metaphors! This means that no prediction I have can ever be wrong, because I can just fabricate a metaphorical interpretation of any prediction that didn’t literally come true after the fact. And what methodology would I use to determine the origin of particular psychic messages?

    “ Yes, they are convenient if used ignorantly or unscrupulously. Having said that, to me the whole business of predictions must be carefully considered. I have experienced predictions of three kinds: 1) Predictions I later discovered to my chagrin were merely projections of my own wishes.
    2) Predictions which originated in some other person's planning
    3) Predictions which originated in the consciousness of our social system
    4) Predictions which may have originated in the minds of ecosystem watchers.”

    The first kind of prediction needs no explanation; however I think that such predictions are far more common even amongst renowned psychics than most believers are willing to admit.

    The second kind of prediction doesn’t require any paranormal means of obtaining knowledge at all. If you successfully predict that someone is about to do something, then it’s probably because you’ve been subconsciously picking up on subtle changes in their behaviour as well as other clues in your environment. Your subconscious mind uses this information to calculate likely outcomes, and when your conscious mind becomes aware of these calculations it interprets them as “predictions” because it can’t allow itself to believe that the subconscious mind has such powerful (and vastly superior) computational abilities.

  • NoetPoet Feb 04, 2014

    (Part 3 of 3)

    The third kind of prediction is similar to the second kind, except that it includes collective fears and fantasies which are shared across many members of a society. Even if we ignore that the 9-11 prediction you cited as an example was published AFTER 9-11, we still have to consider the following before we call this a genuine psychic prediction:

    1) How many people have dreams about plane crashes on any given night? It seems like it would be a not-too-infrequent dream theme. This person allegedly had their dream two nights before 9-11, but in the context of probability I have to ask: so what? Was there a statistical anomalous spike in the number of people who *actually* dreamt about plane crashes in the days before 9-11?
    2) Unlike this person’s dream, the actual events of 9-11 did not involve any planes dropping onto large crowds in a city street. So the only aspects of 9-11 that were predicted by this person’s dream were that it involved a plane, a large city and tragedy. In every other sense the prediction was completely wrong and/or useless: it predicted nothing about Muslim terrorists, foul play, skyscrapers being hit and collapsing, multiple planes, specific times or specific locations. To say that this dream “predicted” 9-11 is a bit like saying that a glass of water is 1/20th full.
    3) To what extent are such dreams actually the result of a) cultural influences such as action movies or plane crash documentaries, and b) the fear, guilt and anxiety that accumulates in people’s subconscious when they see and hear about plane crashes and/or how their country’s actions are angering others around the world? Even people who don’t really follow the news (or follow biased news) can subconsciously pick up on potential large-scale threats just from going about their day-to-day lives.

    The fourth kind of prediction is similar to the second kind of prediction, with the key exception that it involves deliberate and conscious observation and processing of data relating specifically to environmental issues.

    “Of course, you have voiced a concern I have every day, particularly the messiness. But I continue to get a little better at deciphering the metaphors but still have a long way to go.”

    I suspect that as you get better at deciphering the metaphors, you will increasingly notice that most premonitions are in fact (ahem) “metaphorical”.

    “But before I forget it, an important point about the more 'concrete' predictions, for want of a more accurate descriptor, is that whoever sent the prediction could either because she or he or some other player "in the script" changed their mind.”

    Pure speculation. What script??

  • NoetPoet Feb 04, 2014

    @ROS
    "From the movie The NeverEnding Story... You say you love horses, yet you seem to be afraid to get on a REAL one!"

    And you seem to be under the bizarre delusion that references to works of FICTION somehow strengthen your arguments!
    .

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Feb 01, 2014

    :)(:

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Feb 01, 2014

    Hi! Have you considered two real horses named Anima and Animus in love divine, all loves excelling? :-)

    Yours toward mutual respect, empathy, love divine, all loves excelling, integral health and full functioning . . . individually, socially, ecosystemically, and original Co-Sources Consciousness . . .

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Jan 31, 2014

    An excerpt from a post I'd written last October...

    In the movie "Contact," none of the scientists in the control room could see what Ellie was *experiencing" in the pod, as she fell through the wormholes. All they "experienced" was static! That was brilliantly conveyed, because that is exactly what happens in real life, in the REAL Universal Physics, when those locking themselves into one particular dimension can't begin to process the VERY REAL goings on in any other dimensions. At the end of the movie, the White House was secretly acknowledging "18 hours" of missing time in its "Confidential" report.

    Where do you suppose that went?

    —-————

    If you have the courage to actually step out of collective unconscious convention and its faulty and self-limiting reasoning, to genuinely experience the true Universal Process, to visit other ...very real... dimensions, to find yourself multidimensionally drifting in actual relative spaceXtime, and falling through very real wormholes, to interact with what is there, to witness the inescapable Physics of the real Reality directly for yourself, do the suggested assignments in the Consciousness 101/How to... thread.

    I can't GIVE you the Answers. You have to EARN them yourself.

    If you really want to find those Universal *Energies* making it all happen, and have the courage to directly interact with the True Universal Process, the work in that thread will take you *there.*

    From the movie The NeverEnding Story... You say you love horses, yet you seem to be afraid to get on a REAL one!

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 31, 2014

    [Continuation from last post - final]
    3) Predictions which originated in the consciousness of our social system, perhaps the perpetrators of the massive crime, and came to me as a dream predicting disaster. This one was published in IONS' SHIFT magazine after 9/11. Two nights before our country's 9/11 experience I dreamed of an aircraft dropping onto a large crowd congregated in the street of a seemingly very large city. A voice said, "It's killing them." 4) Predictions which may have originated in the minds of ecosystem watchers have been many. Too many to describe here as I am mindful of the 3,000 spaces limit the 'powers that be' have placed on our posts. You're right, these psychic experiences "might lead to a false impression", the key to separating the wheat from the chaff is to 'reality test' your psychic messages in the laboratory of your everyday life. We can chat some more about this later, if you want.” The “laboratory of everyday life” is very messy and filled with confounding variables. Moreover, it is very easy for selection bias and confirmation bias to arise in such testing, especially if you allow for “metaphorical” interpretations of predictions. RWJ: Of course, you have voiced a concern I have every day, particularly the messiness. But I continue to get a little better at deciphering the metaphors but still have a long way to go. But before I forget it, an important point about the more 'concrete' predictions, for want of a more accurate descriptor, is that whoever sent the prediction could either because she or he or some other player "in the script" changed their mind. Take for example, what if the planners of the 9/11 attacks had changed their minds at the last minute? You will probably have additional issues. I'm open to discussion at your pleasure.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 31, 2014

    [Continuation from last post - IONS system cut me off]
    “Keep meditating on your psychic experiences and I recommend viewing each one as an option to be tested for validity and reliability. Many such psychic inputs are metaphors with multiple meanings and of course they are the trickiest to interpret accurately. I suggest you try to determine the origin of the psychic message and her/his intention in sending it to you.” How convenient that many are metaphors! This means that no prediction I have can ever be wrong, because I can just fabricate a metaphorical interpretation of any prediction that didn’t literally come true after the fact. And what methodology would I use to determine the origin of particular psychic messages? RWJ: Yes, they are convenient if used ignorantly or unscrupulously. Having said that, to me the whole business of predictions must be carefully considered. I have experienced predictions of three kinds: 1) Predictions I later discovered to my chagrin were merely projections of my own wishes.
    2) Predictions which originated in some other person's planning, a personal illustration: I was an internal consultant with an office in my client's corporate facility. Just two or three day earlier I was given an extension on my contract with a large (25%) increase in my fee. About a week later I had a dream which turned out to be precognitive. I dreamed I entered my office to find my desk turned over on its side, my chair turned over, and all my book shelves empty. I first thought I would ignore the dream as significant, after all I just earlier had been given tangible evidence which refuted the message of the dream. Not telling the cognizant corporate vice president about my dream I asked him if things had changed in any way since the glowing performance report and raise in fee. He answered, "Bob, I'm not supposed to tell you about this but the corporation has suffered a severe loss of business and we are having to lay off even some valuable engineers and we are having to lay you off too."

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 31, 2014

    Harking back for about five decades I remember questions very much like yours. I have interposed my responses marked by RWJ.
    There is no such thing as an eternal self, except the one that exists in your imagination. “Psyche”, “soul” and “being” are all words which are vague to the point of uselessness. RWJ: What reliable evidence can you cite which disproves the existence of an eternal self. As to psyche, soul, being they to me are synonyms. I have found Carl Jung's definition of the psyche as including four functions: thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition as useful for starters.
    “In the very act of evaluating your temporal 'heirlooms' you are, in effect, transcending them and have the freedom to exercise your options for deciding to keep them or let go of them.” This sounds plausible, but is irrelevant to the topic at hand. RWJ: Please tell me in what way(s) my response is "irrelevant to the topic at hand." Thank you.“Once you have cleared your eternal mind-spirit soul of all your temporal identifications, attachments, addictions, habits, and/or hang-ups and you have returned to oneness [complete unity] with our transparent "ocean" of omnipresent Anima and Animus Mind [I call OmniMind or OM for short] Co-Source of All you will discover your psychic gifts [Hindus call them Siddhis, Christians "gifts of the spirit" - call them what you want] begin to emerge, usually slowly but some may burst into your consciousness.”If you cleared your mind of all of those then your mind would just be like a blank (but switched on) TV screen. Any experience of “unity” or “oceans” or “Co-source” can only be either a) attachments to a subtle concept and perception, in which case you haven’t truly emptied your mind, or b) a post-hoc interpretation of the blank mind experience which is conditioned by your own cultural bias and preconceptions. By what mechanism would clearing the mind like this lead to psychic abilities? RWJ: Yes, I've heard that argument before but please take careful heed to my words, "Once you have cleared your eternal mind-spirit soul of all your temporal identifications, attachments, addictions, habits, and/or hang-ups " I have not used the words "emptied your mind". I agree one cannot entirely empty one's mind, but one can clear their personal unconscious realm of mind of involuntarily conditioned contents contents. To my surprise I discovered that my personal unconscious realm of mind became, as it is now, my co-conscious realm of mind.

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Jan 30, 2014

    Consciousness is not transferable. Want Answers?

    *Do the work!*

  • NoetPoet Jan 30, 2014

    “But in my experience that has been a very beneficial freeing kind of self-dissociation because it is not my eternal self (psyche, soul, being) I am dissociating with, only my "false" sense, my physical, my temporary "self" which gets old, dies, and returns "dust to dust, ashes to ashes, into the earth to be recycled.”

    There is no such thing as an eternal self, except the one that exists in your imagination. “Psyche”, “soul” and “being” are all words which are vague to the point of uselessness.

    “In the very act of evaluating your temporal 'heirlooms' you are, in effect, transcending them and have the freedom to exercise your options for deciding to keep them or let go of them.”

    This sounds plausible, but is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    “Once you have cleared your eternal mind-spirit soul of all your temporal identifications, attachments, addictions, habits, and/or hang-ups and you have returned to oneness [complete unity] with our transparent "ocean" of omnipresent Anima and Animus Mind [I call OmniMind or OM for short] Co-Source of All you will discover your psychic gifts [Hindus call them Siddhis, Christians "gifts of the spirit" - call them what you want] begin to emerge, usually slowly but some may burst into your consciousness.”

    If you cleared your mind of all of those then your mind would just be like a blank (but switched on) TV screen. Any experience of “unity” or “oceans” or “Co-source” can only be either a) attachments to a subtle concept and perception, in which case you haven’t truly emptied your mind, or b) a post-hoc interpretation of the blank mind experience which is conditioned by your own cultural bias and preconceptions. By what mechanism would clearing the mind like this lead to psychic abilities?

    “Keep meditating on your psychic experiences and I recommend viewing each one as an option to be tested for reliability. Many such psychic inputs are metaphors with multiple meanings and of course they are the trickiest to interpret accurately. I suggest you try to determine the origin of the psychic message and her/his intention in sending it to you.”

    How convenient that many are metaphors! This means that no prediction I have can ever be wrong, because I can just fabricate a metaphorical interpretation of any prediction that didn’t literally come true after the fact. And what methodology would I use to determine the origin of particular psychic messages??

    “Yuh, you're right, these psychic experiences "might lead to a false impression", the key to separating the wheat from the chaff is to 'reality test' your psychic messages in the laboratory of your everyday life. We can chat some more about this later, if you want.”

    The “laboratory of everyday life” is very messy and filled with confounding variables. Moreover, it is very easy for selection bias and confirmation bias to arise in such testing, especially if you allow for “metaphorical” interpretations of predictions.

  • NoetPoet Jan 30, 2014

    “Conventional "psychics" are unwittingly costing millions of people their lives, and contributing to serious setbacks in scientific discovery, because the laughing stock they are making of the extremely important ENERGIES they are exploiting is mistakenly making a laughing stock of the superConscious fluent in Higher Universal ...Physics... that render what scientists claim "will take centuries" immediately available.”

    What conventional psychics?? Are you talking about meteorologists, ecologists, astronomers, climatologists, and others? The only commonality that these scientists share with psychics is that they predict future outcomes. Beyond that, they are completely different: scientists use rigorous analytical methods, test and refine their predictive models, and make remarkably specific and accurate predictions, while psychics do none of these. Again, what “energies”, and if they are so real and important then why haven’t our instruments ever detected them??

    "So realize, at least, the CONSEQUENCES of launching laughing stock campaigns. Victims of such campaigns include over a quarter of a million people washed away in the Indonesia tsunami, and all those folks trapped in the tops of those towers!"

    So how many psychics predicted the Indonesian tsunami coming BEFOREHAND? Did you see it coming?? If so, can *you* provide evidence that you predicted it beforehand? On the other hand, advances in science allow us not only to better understand the nature of tsunamis but also to better predict and to design early warning systems for them.

    And let me just say you have some nerve trying to blame 9-11 on scientists and rationalists. It was religious fanatics who carried out that attack because they shared a silly delusional belief that it would lead them to better afterlife. If anything, your championing of subjectivity over reason and self-reinforcement of delusions makes *you* far more ideologically akin to those idiots than myself or any scientist!

  • NoetPoet Jan 30, 2014

    “Those articles are typical unconscious conventional authority using unconscious conventional reasoning to guarantee and protect unconscious convention. From a superConsciousness perspective, they are filled with flaws throughout.”

    And what flaws would they be? Can you cite examples?

    “As for "psychic," again you have to realize what society has done with that word, and not inadvertently buy into the unfortunate reputation that collective unconscious convention has projected onto it. Always remember to "consider the source," so you don't jump on that unconscious bandwagon as your foundation as you launch your campaign against it. If you set out to debunk all things "psychic" with unconscious authorities as your experts in reasoning, and with very limited realizations to process the Process, it just becomes a self abiding loop of "junk in, junk out."”

    Like so many other “paranormal” phenomena, psychic ability is not a magical/divine thing; it is just a natural rationally-understandable phenomenon that we regard as special because we don’t fully understand it yet. “Psychic” ability is to neurology and psychology what “here be dragons” used to be to cartography: a way of saying that we haven’t properly explored this territory yet, but we’re going to make up some cool fantasy about what’s there anyway because heaven forbid that we ever just say “I don’t know.” In ancient times writing was considered to be a magical abiliy by most people, simply because they didn't understand the underlying rules and logic of it.

    What do you mean when you say “consider the source”? What source?? And how are these people “unconscious”?? It must be a pretty good party trick to write an article while you’re passed out. The only “junk in, junk out” process going on here is your own “Process”, which is built entirely on a foundation of subjective unverifiable experience and wilful self-delusion.

    “It is VERY unfortunate what unconscious society and its equally unconscious authorities (or wannabe authorities) have done with phenomena they can't more responsibly reason through. The key is to find the *energy* behind a phenomenon, and to educate yourself on how people/societies/cultures/religions/individuals, etc., go about processing that energy, to get to the ...real... phenomenon being addressed, minus the clutter.”

    Science has done a fine job of reasoning through psychic ability. It has been shown to be a complex illusion generated by elaborate thought processes and, in many cases, deliberate deception. You talk about finding “energy” but I don’t think you know what that term actually means…

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Jan 30, 2014


    Those articles are typical unconscious conventional authority using unconscious conventional reasoning to guarantee and protect unconscious convention. From a superConsciousness perspective, they are filled with flaws throughout.

    As for "psychic," again you have to realize what society has done with that word, and not inadvertently buy into the unfortunate reputation that collective unconscious convention has projected onto it. Always remember to "consider the source," so you don't jump on that unconscious bandwagon as your foundation as you launch your campaign against it. If you set out to debunk all things "psychic" with unconscious authorities as your experts in reasoning, and with very limited realizations to process the Process, it just becomes a self abiding loop of "junk in, junk out."

    It is VERY unfortunate what unconscious society and its equally unconscious authorities (or wannabe authorities) have done with phenomena they can't more responsibly reason through. The key is to find the *energy* behind a phenomenon, and to educate yourself on how people/societies/cultures/religions/individuals, etc., go about processing that energy, to get to the ...real... phenomenon being addressed, minus the clutter.

    Conventional "psychics" are unwittingly costing millions of people their lives, and contributing to serious setbacks in scientific discovery, because the laughing stock they are making of the extremely important ENERGIES they are exploiting is mistakenly making a laughing stock of the superConscious fluent in Higher Universal ...Physics... that render what scientists claim "will take centuries" immediately available.

    So realize, at least, the CONSEQUENCES of launching laughing stock campaigns. Victims of such campaigns include over a quarter of a million people washed away in the Indonesia tsunami, and all those folks trapped in the tops of those towers!

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 29, 2014

    You're right ". . . disidentification may produce a sense of self-dissociation" IF one has been psycho-spiritually identified with anything any form of "self'" that dies or ends, such as one's physical body, name, occupation, religious group, belief, value, socio-economic status, etc. But in my experience that has been a very beneficial freeing kind of self-dissociation because it is not my eternal self (psyche, soul, being) I am dissociating with, only my "false" sense, my physical, my temporary "self" which gets old, dies, and returns "dust to dust, ashes to ashes, into the earth to be recycled.

    Please try to be clear about this kind of, let's call it , 'disidentification with temporal things.' It's kind of like going through one's inner attic or basement and rummaging through all the self-images you have inherited from your parents and grandparents, teachers, clergy, siblings, etc., i.e. DNA, beliefs, values, etc., and consciously decide about what you want to keep and what you want to let go of.

    In the very act of evaluating your temporal 'heirlooms' you are, in effect, transcending them and have the freedom to exercise your options for deciding to keep them or let go of them. I suggest, based on my own experience, keeping all of them as options in your total repertoire of possible choices for employment later should a situation or situations call for them, so to speak.

    Once you have cleared your eternal mind-spirit soul of all your temporal identifications, attachments, addictions, habits, and/or hang-ups and you have returned to oneness [complete unity] with our transparent "ocean" of omnipresent Anima and Animus Mind [I call OmniMind or OM for short] Co-Source of All you will discover your psychic gifts [Hindus call them Siddhis, Christians "gifts of the spirit" - call them what you want] begin to emerge, usually slowly but some may burst into your consciousness. Keep meditating on your psychic experiences and I recommend viewing each one as an option to be tested for reliability. Many such psychic inputs are metaphors with multiple meanings and of course they are the trickiest to interpret accurately. I suggest you try to determine the origin of the psychic message and her/his intention in sending it to you.

    Yuh, you're right, these psychic experiences "might lead to a false impression", the key to separating the wheat from the chaff is to 'reality test' your psychic messages in the laboratory of your everyday life. We can chat some more about this later, if you want.

    That dear soul is the best I can do in just a few words. If you want more clarity, illustrations, examples, etc. let me know.

    Yours toward mutual respect, empathy, caring, wisdom, and integral health in all we do.

  • NoetPoet Jan 29, 2014

    That disidentification may produce a sense of self-dissociation, but it does not follow that it will lead to psychic abilities. At best it might lead to a false impression of having such abilities due to self-fulfilling expectation.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 29, 2014

    Hhmmm . . . dear soul, a way to realizing your goal is indeed the way I achieved the very goals you stated. I summed up the process in my last post, spam to you or not, realizing your goals involves identifying with the eternal ALL and disidentifying with everything temporal, i.e. disidentifies with one's flesh and blood body, one's occupation, one's socioeconomic status, etc.the more one's consciousness of who she/he/it really is the more the psychospiritual gifts (sidhis) become alive. Basically, it is a matter of total surrender to the ALL, the omnipresent Anima and Animus Mind-Spirit of ALL there is. I suggest you may want to experiment with this process in meditation and experience where that takes you. Yours toward expanding conscious awareness of who you are and are not within integrally healthful parameters.

  • NoetPoet Jan 28, 2014

    Please stay on topic. This thread is about how to see ghosts and be psychic. I have not spammed your Integral Self Management thread with off-topic posts full of my own pet theories, so I would appreciate it if you could please extend the same courtesy to me.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 26, 2014

    What you call "applied circular reasoning" sounds similar to one of my several versions of self-management processing which includes a feedback loop. For example:

    Step One: I IDENTIFY AND ATTUNE with the subtlest-of-the-subtle, timeless, 'infinite', window-glass-clear all-pervading Mystery Source (or Co-Source) of all consciousness, health, full functioning, and well being.

    Step Two: I DISIDENTIFY with temporal identifications, addictions, habits, hang-ups, etc. relative to my temporal feelings, beliefs, values, intentions, processes, behaviors, and possessions.

    Once all attachments, etc. have been disidentified with the result is a 'perfected soul' (A perfected soul is one which has completely disidentified with all temporal identifications, addictions, habits, and hang-ups. A perfected soul, however, still has much to learn about effective interpersonal communications/relationships. Since every individual is unique this learning process presumably goes on for as long as one lives.)

    Step Three: I TRANSCEND, OWN, AND INCLUDE every existentially available feeling, thought, image, behavior, and potential possession (former identifications, etc.) in my repertoire of possible options for deploying in various situations within practical and healthful parameters.

    Step Four: I CO-CREATIVELY SELF-MANAGE with our Source (or Co-Source) my repertoire of temporal options in an integrally healthful way according to my intentions in the situation at hand. Every response is an option with consequences including caveats regarding overuse or misuse.

    Step Five: I PROCESS FEEDBACK from our Source (or Co-Source) my dreams, other entities, and ecosystem on how I am doing relative to achieving intended objectives relative to soul consciousness development, creative objectives, innovative objectives, problem-solving objectives, preventive maintenance objectives.

    Re-start process

  • NoetPoet Jan 26, 2014

    Where nothing happens, nothing happens!

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Jan 26, 2014

    Where Nothing happens, there's no such thing as "circular!"

  • NoetPoet Jan 26, 2014

    That would be a great big exercise in applied circular reasoning.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jan 26, 2014

    Suggestion: Meditate cognitively and experientially on being consciously one with the ALL, also known to me as the transparent Omnipresent Anima and Animus Mind-Spirit in and around everyone and everything. Once so identified disidentify with everything temporal, i.e. identify psychospiritually with the transtemporal in and around ALL and disidentify with everything temporal, such as one's body, money, social status, occupation, etc. and meditate, meditate, meditate ad finitum. ALL is love. Respect and love ALL.

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