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Posted Oct. 10, 2013 by Jim Centi in Open

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commented on Dec. 27, 2013
by dustproduction



You may recall from a previous post that I suggested that you enter the name of “Edgar Mitchell videos” into the search engine of this site. When you do that you will have access to a few short videos in which Edgar discusses his experience of an altered state of consciousness or awareness during his return from the moon as an astronaut.

Although he is highly educated in certain fields he could not find a clear definition of what it was that he experienced.

In one particular video he states that he contacted a group of Anthropologists and Archeologists at a local university to determine if they could help him understand what it was that he experienced. After a bit of researching, they contacted him and informed that in ancient Sanskrit, Buddhism and Hinduism it is referred to as Samadhi and Satori.

After a bit, we’ll discuss the nature of altered states of awareness or consciousness, but first I would like to tell you bit about how I met Edgar Mitchell and my impression of him.

Many years ago, before IONS was created, Edgar conducted a lecture in Los Angeles in which he discussed his experience in space and his intention to create an organization for the purpose of exploring the nature of consciousness.

After his lecture, we met in the hall and had a conversation about altered states of consciousness. He was the most remarkable person I had ever met. Looking into his eyes produced the experience some have described upon meeting the Dalai Lama.

It was only after many years that while surfing the net, I stumbled upon IONS and realized that it was the organization that Edgar had planned to create.

In the next part of this topic, I’ll post a few quotes from others who were not astronauts, but I believe that their quotes reveal that they may have experienced what Edgar experienced.

The first quote is the most poetic description of the experience I have ever encountered.

“Still there are moments when one feels free from one’s own identification with human limitations and inadequacies. At such moments, one imagines that one stands on some spot of a small planet, gazing in amazement at the cold yet profoundly moving beauty of the eternal, the unfathomable: life and death flow into one, and there is neither evolution nor destiny; only being.”

That quote is by Albert Einstein. Einstein was fond of conducting mind experiments. One that is often published is that he would imagine that he was on a beam, traveling through space at the speed of light. Einstein referred to his experiences as “Talks with the old one”.

What is worthy of consideration is that both Edgar and Einstein were detached from the unrelenting stream of thoughts that flow through awareness when the experience occurred.

This is why meditation and yoga can produce the altered state of consciousness we will be discussing. When done properly, one detaches from the constant flow of thoughts that pollute awareness and pure awareness, unpolluted by thoughts, may be experienced.

Have you noticed that much in the unrelenting flow of thoughts is involved with opinions about what should be, what was or what could be? Of course, there are occasions when thinking is necessary, such as when you are balancing your check book, doing your taxes, have a job that requires thinking or enjoy participating in Discussions.

In my opinion, habitual involvement with the thinking process is a distraction from pure awareness and should be used as an occasional tool rather than accepted simply as an aspect of human experience.

Here’s a quote from Zen.

“Cease to cherish opinions.”

Here’s a short quote from someone that reveals he had the experience of pure awareness.

“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is…..infinite.” [William Blake]

People who have had the experience of true pure awareness; occasionally speak of infinity, the infinite or detachment from the ego or human sense of self.

Blake is a somewhat recent appearance on the scene when compared with the author of next quote.

“You ask, how can I know the infinite? I answer, not by reason. It is the office of reason to distinguish and define. The infinite, therefore, cannot be ranked among its objects. You can only apprehend the infinite by a faculty superior to reason, by entering into a state in which you are your finite self no longer, in which the Divine Essence is communicated to you. This is Ecstasy. It is the liberation of your mind from its finite consciousness.” [Plotinus 204 AD- 270AD]

He says “you are you finite self no longer”. Do you think that he referring to the human ego or what some might refer to as their sense of self?

You may notice that the quotes above along with Edgar Mitchell’s description of his experience in space in the videos reflect or infer a departure from the thinking process, ego or human sense of self.

What follows is are two slightly edited paragraphs borrowed from another topic:

Pure awareness has been referred to as Cosmic Consciousness, Unity Consciousness, Universal Consciousness, Universal Mind, Buddha Consciousness, God Consciousness, The Great Awakening, Spiritual Enlightenment, Oneness with the Universe and of course, Samadhi and Satori.

In listening to the recorded lectures of respected teachers they have said that this state is never permanent. It can be experienced for a few minutes or hours. It can even be experienced during sleep. If it is experienced during sleep and not remembered, upon waking up, the individual may begin to experience an affinity with what is often referred to as spirituality.

I believe that the reason the state is never permanent is because to discuss anything with a separate self, requires a separate self. Of course, there may be exceptions to this such as someone living the solitude of a cave in Tibet or in monasteries where a vow of silence is taken.

An affinity with spirituality often causes individuals to have some degree of respect for causes that are dedicated to the greater good. Examples would be causes devoted to care for the poor, the ill, animals, peace, the environment or the earth itself. I feel sure that someone has been left out.

Oh yes, IONS was left out. Its fundamental purpose is to expand our sense of self by exploring the nature of consciousness or human subjective experience.

Through a better understanding of consciousness or psi we expand our ideas of what humans really are.

I think one of our major problems is accepting how traditional science defines humans. There is one source where humans are defined as a bipedal primate with an opposing thumb that suckles its young. This definition is so incredibly shallow that find it hilarious.

There is a more detailed definition of what we are by expanding on the previous definition. It states that humans are a bipedal primate with an opposing thumb that suckles its young and experiences conceptual thought.

There are other examples but most seem to contain the phrasing that these two definitions do and all I have encountered are grossly inadequate.

Other definitions may be suggested, but for now, I like the following:

Humans are a multidimensional entity that experiences the physical domain and conceptual thought, but on occasion it may experience pure awareness that is unpolluted by conceptual thought. When this occurs the individual may experience a sense of awe, caused by an intense awareness that existence is absolutely perfect, just the way it is.

The final quote seems like a good place to end this topic:

“Nothing is more hidden from us than the illusion which lives with us day by day, and our greatest illusion is to believe that we are what we think ourselves to be.” [Amiel 1821 –1881]

I have used a few terms or phrases that you may not be familiar with so any questions you have please ask them. I will attempt to answer any questions relating to this topic to the best of my ability. Of course, comments are always welcome.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 27, 2013

    Re: I just can't see what I need to answer or comment about that I haven't already.


  • mrmathew1963 Dec 26, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    How many questions/comments have you side stepped? I just can't see what I need to answer or comment about that I haven't already.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 25, 2013

    Don't sidestep the issue. Please response, tackle, answer, comment on.....etc the following:


  • mrmathew1963 Dec 25, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    I think dogging or badgering is making it personal wouldn't you say?? Who was pleaded not to comment on a certain topic but did anyway? You can't help dogging people can you?

    What are you badgering/demanding me to comment on again!! This is going to shock you but I don't have to abide by your demands you know.

    You have obviously made it personal in dogging/badgering me, how many times have you gone off topic to dog me? Again numerous times, you have personally made it a personal however you are trying to put this emphasis onto me by taking the emphasis from you, dirty trick.

    Stop your deception as I'm also sure this isn't tolerated by IONS either. Grow up mate, please!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 24, 2013

    Don't sidestep the issue. Please response, tackle, answer, comment on.....etc the following:


    Stop making it personal at least

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 24, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    You do mention attack & defence a lot which is suggestive of a defensive person, wouldn't you say dogging is also an attack & are you yourself going to stop dogging? It doesn't seem so but you demand this from others!!

    Asking for sound scientific proof from a person who only deductively reasons isn't an attack if it was how many times have you personally attacked people then?? Again I have lost count.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 24, 2013

    Please attack this question and not others here.


  • mrmathew1963 Dec 23, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    Where is your sound scientific proof, you think isn't very scientific is it? It is funny once again you demand from others which you will not supply yourself. This link isn't sound scientific proof, it's more like an assumption or theory. The link I supplied & read gave both sides of the argument but to a controller this wouldn't & couldn't be right because you would have then relinquished part of your control if I was right in any sense, this is why I can’t ever be right to you & this I why I am a fixation to you obviously.

    Again all you are talking about is deductive reasoning which is noted to be flawed.



    Tell me when you grow up so we can have a decent conversation without condescending subjective remarks!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 23, 2013

    Is psychology a “real” science? Does it really matter?

    "Fellow Scientific American blogger Melanie Tannenbaum is flustered by allegations that psychology is not a science and I can see where she is coming from. In this case the stimulus was a piece by Alex Berezow, a microbiologist, who in a short and provocative piece in the LA times argued the case that psychology is not a real science. I think he’s right."

    Here is the caveat, "I also think that he misses the point."

    Spend more time reading and less time exercising YOUR ego.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 21, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    RE:"Is psychology a “real” science? Does it really matter?"

    This is like saying is life really life not an illusion does it really matter or is quantum physics a real science, of course it matters & this is supposably coming from someone who dictates his own logic reasoning to others!!!!

    RE:"Spend more time reading and less time exercising YOUR ego."

    I produce a piece saying one thing but when you produce something else that overrides all else obviously, are you for real!! So when you produce something it’s the overall truth which cancels out all other truths, you’re not that arrogant are you??? I think you better do a little more objective reading rather than subjective reading which is dictated by your limited reasoning process obviously.

    The ego thing is funnier than what you think unbeknownst to you obviously!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 21, 2013

    Is psychology a “real” science? Does it really matter?

    "Fellow Scientific American blogger Melanie Tannenbaum is flustered by allegations that psychology is not a science and I can see where she is coming from. In this case the stimulus was a piece by Alex Berezow, a microbiologist, who in a short and provocative piece in the LA times argued the case that psychology is not a real science. I think he’s right."

    Here is the caveat, "I also think that he misses the point."

    Spend more time reading and less time exercising YOUR ego.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 21, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    RE: "How do you proven a negative? You are simply bashing all science even that which is already proven, even that which is conducted by IONS."

    All science is it, rethink & stop this blatant dishonesty please you are actually making yourself look like a fool by continually attacking me with whatever you can. The controlling ego really has got you by the short'n'curlies hasn't it?

    RE:"It is truly impressive to me that you can question all of science but not yourself"

    It is also truly impressive that you question spirituality but not yourself. I thought science was about enquiry which takes some form of questioning to formulate an answer, I've obviously got it wrong again, silly me!!! And I do love the ALL again, I only a controller wold be so corruptly insistent, people aren’t fools Dusty!!!

    All this comes from a bloke who firmly stated psychology isn’t a science; how logically credible does that make this person??

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 21, 2013

    It is truly impressive to me that you can question all of science but not yourself

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 21, 2013

    "Why Growing Retractions Are (Mostly) a Good Sign"

    "Corrections to scientific papers have been published for much longer than retractions, and show little sign of a recent increase.
    The number of journals issuing retractions has grown dramatically in recent years, but the number of retractions per retracting-journal has not increased.
    The number of queries and allegations made to the US Office of Research Integrity has grown, but the frequency of its findings of misconduct has not increased.
    Therefore, the rising number of retractions is most likely to be caused by a growing propensity to retract flawed and fraudulent papers, and there is little evidence of an increase in the prevalence of misconduct.
    Statistics on retractions and findings of misconduct are best used to make inferences about weaknesses in the system of scientific self-correction."


  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 20, 2013

    Re: Prove to me without a doubt there isn't,

    How do you proven a negative? You are simply bashing all science even that which is all ready proven, even that which is conducted by IONS.
    Can you prove there is a spirit? Or and ego?

    Science has a method, which you continue to ignore. Any claims in science need to be replicated in order to be accepted. If or when there is fraud it is caught by other scientists, unlike spirituality, where there is also fraud.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 20, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    Prove to me without a doubt there isn't, you can't so there is a question of doubt obviously however I've proven there could be a doubt obviously.

    I do find it funny, the only person to look into fraud within the science community is a Christian with ethics, it doesn't say much about the others does it, cover up after cover up!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 20, 2013

    Re: Is fraudulent science is all you can come up with?

    That is an interesting claim. What research that I have referenced was fraudulent?

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 19, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    Is fraudulent science is all you can come up with?

    It's funny how everyone has to reason like you otherwise they are wrong!! Read what's below & try to help yourself by relating.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 19, 2013

    Is "Psychology Today" the best resource you can come up with?

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 18, 2013

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In psychology-related slang, control freak is a derogatory term for a person who attempts to dictate how everything around them is done.

    Vulnerabilities: Control freaks are often perfectionists[3] defending themselves against their own inner vulnerabilities in the belief that if they are not in total control they risk exposing themselves once more to childhood angst.

    Below is an interesting read.


    Extract: In "Emotional Freedom" I discuss many kinds of draining people. One of them is the “controller.” These people obsessively try to dictate how you’re supposed to be and feel. They have an opinion about everything; disagree at your peril. They’ll control you by invalidating your emotions if those don’t fit into their rulebook.

    Gosh, what a shock, anyone who dictates their own reasoning process is superior above all else has to fit within this category obviously!! Who on IONS gives an opinion on everything even if they have no idea what they are talking about?

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 18, 2013

    Wittgenstein was famous for his assertion that the vast majority of human communication was meaningless babble, just ways to fill in the gaps between silences. Sound and fury signifying nothing. And all the rest is silence, with silence being the best default for human self consciousness at least given its faulty conscious predictive abilities [Kahnemann et.al].

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 18, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    This is funny coming from someone who dictates certain terms to everyone else but doesn't follow the same terms himself. It's obvious that you love to control everyone's discussions but as soon as you lose control you erupt or pull a tantrum. Try following your own dictated terms now & again, you won't sound so ridiculously hypocritical.

    If I have nothing new to offer why do you keep replying to me? Controlling ego, you must have control.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 18, 2013

    RE: "all I have to do is put my view across"

    Whether it is an informed view or not is the relevant question. My point is that it is a fairly limited view.
    Thank you for making my point. I originally observed this and credited you for at least admitting to it, but the limitations of you commenting are better read as a blog instead of comment in a conversation.
    Overtime, there is little if anything new that you have to offer. It continues to be the same old tired observations that you ffed months ago.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 18, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    I don't have to do anything Dusty, that's your fixation not mine, all I have to do is put my view across & if you want to accept it or not, which of course you usually don't, that's up to you. Unlike you Dusty most of what I put down as my views has usually been actually experienced by me & others.

    Your obvious distorted flawed reasoning will discard anything you don't wish to accept egotistically like psychology not being a science, I'm utterly dumb founded. Your job is to prove everything you bring up in discussions which of course you don't like saying psychology not being a science however I haven't got such a fixation to worry me.

    I find it funny you dictate certain terms to others but you don't follow the same terms to the letter yourself. I've told far more intellectual people than me about you, they can’t believe I’m still conversing with you. I also find it funny how when something is proved that proves you wrong, which happens quite often, you drop the discussion on that particular topic. This is a sign of a controlling ego because as soon as you lose control you no longer continue the discussion on any view that has proved you wrong, You are firm actual proof of what I have been saying about the controlling ego.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 18, 2013

    re: in fact psychology is quite new therefore the studies into the ego have also developed more

    It is not for me to find it, rather it is your job to present it here. If you could you would, but it appears that your own knowledge of the topic is small, a hybrid of limited resources.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 18, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    I think you will find psychology has evolved some what over the centuries & in fact psychology is quite new therefore the studies into the ego have also developed more, there is indeed something new. I think you have a problem with the ego because you are so controlled by it, of course your ego doesn't want to know how controlled it is even by itself.

    Let me give you some helpful advice, rid yourself of the way you deductively reason, it just doesn't add up!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 17, 2013

    Again: "We choice to view knowing and knowledge in terms of a personal knowledge, and not in the more universal sense; all the knowledge that is knowable.
    What we "know" can be represented by the metaphor of a library. There are shelves filled with books, and we have only read a small percentage of them. And then we find larger libraries with even more books."

    The idea of an ego is unoriginal, it is borrowed far somewhere, and like concept of religion, it is repeated without meaning, pointed like a finger

    When you can tell one part of the brain from another you are less fix to definitions of constructed model parts, like ego.

    See neuropsychology:
    "Neuropsychology studies the structure and function of the brain as they relate to specific psychological processes and behaviors."

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 17, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    You don't have to be so flippant do you if you don’t want too, what deflection?

    You stated did you not “My suggestion is that there is no "ego" within a person, and that the term was used as a symbol of human characteristics that can now be better explained and understood." I replied to your suggestion did I not?

    Psychology isn’t a science to you mainly because you’re not into psychology or a psychologist which again is determined by the ego from someone not usually into psychology, this is typical.



    Once again your deductive reasoning process is in question here & is found to be flawed by far more professional & learned people than yourself. You honestly can’t see that you have an over inflated ego?

    Extract from Wikipedia: “Psychology is an academic and applied discipline that involves the scientific study of mental functions and behaviors.”

    If you can’t see how wrong you are maybe we should scrap deductive reasoning all together, outlaw it please.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 17, 2013

    Interesting deflection away from point being made about personal knowledge.
    One might ask what the root understanding of the term is in the uses found in your statements. They appear to be a hybrid of Freud's model with some buddhism and hinduism thrown in
    As for psychology, it is not a science. Freud's use of the term was for the purpose of creating a framework of the workings of the mind. But the ego is not a "thing" or noun.

    And to repeat a point that was ignore, increasingly, neuroscience is distancing itself from Freud's model.
    see Kahneman's type 1 & type 2 thinking

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 17, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    RE: "My suggestion is that there is no "ego" within a person, and that the term was used as a symbol of human characteristics that can now be better explained and understood."

    Professional psychologists would disagree with your deductive reasoning on this. The following gives a good explanation of what the ego is.


    This is an interesting passage from this site.

    "The ego has no concept of right or wrong; something is good simply if it achieves its end of satisfying without causing harm to itself or to the id."

    Can you see why a multinational for instance can't possibly see a right or wrong?

    The funniest thing is spiritually aware people, if not aware enough, act out the superego which I try to make them aware of. The ideal self to your average spiritually aware person is ascension above what we are at present to something more enhanced which denoted superego tendencies but of course there ego won’t allow them to see this.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 17, 2013

    We choice to view knowing and knowledge in terms of a personal knowledge, and not in the more universal sense, all the knowledge that is knowable.
    What we "know" can be represented by the metaphor of a library. There are shelves filled with books, and we have only read a small percentage of them. And then we find larger libraries with even more books.


  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 17, 2013

    Where would we find an "ego" in the human body? What physical components make up the "ego" Or is the ego an emergent property of the body?
    My suggestion is that there is no "ego" within a person, and that the term was used as a symbol of human characteristics that can now be better explained and understood.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 16, 2013

    G'day Dusty
    RE;"What you "know" would need to be measured independent of what you think you know."

    Why, to a person who deductively reasons yes I can see why it would have to be measured however I don't just deductively reason, actual experiences are enough plus I have had my writings confirmed by people in the know. A person who has studied & practiced in psychology should be in the know if I'm off the mark in relation to my findings about the ego, she was my boss when I was working with disabled people.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 16, 2013

    Re: I know without actually reading it from a text book.

    What you "know" would need to be measured independent of what you think you know.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 15, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    There is one big difference between you & I, you have obviously experienced very little of what you know & write about where I’ve experienced most of what I know & write about, there is more speculation on your part than mine obviously. Most other people who have experienced what I right about agree in full in what I am saying, this also includes highly educated people.

    I have had a particular person who set up their own schools teaching disabled people read my stuff & give it the thumbs up, I have also had some of my writings published in a metaphysics mag in the US, not bad for a person who isn’t in your own personal view learned. Setting up a school for disabled people takes a lot of knowing, far more than what you have obviously. This person also has a psychology degree which should tell you something especially in relation to the ego.

    It is so obvious that you look down at people like me, how dare I know without actually reading it from a text book. I will tell you a secret, books only give you an outline, actual experiences gives you the full picture & yes I am schooled enough to learn from such experiences.

    My assumption of you is your very egotistical & anyone displaying egotistical tendencies are usually blinded by their own ego to the real truth. The ego by the way only wants you to know a certain truth, any truth that is going to feed it, everything else is discarded, does this remind you of someone? Taking all this into consideration, why should anyone listen to someone who is egotistical?

    Answer me this, do you have a degree in psychology or have you like me lived on the wrong side of the tracks? I’ve lived what psychologists learn through books & books do not give you the big picture however actual life experiences do, try it one day & then comeback to me a tell me how wrong I am. Believe me if you had actually experienced half of what you know you wouldn't be looking down at you nose at people like me.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 15, 2013

    Re: "There is a big difference between expressing the ego to being controlled by the ego"

    This is all a personal narrative of your, correct. As I have pointed out, you are writing in the declarative and not in a more speculative subjective form. You are the one authoring this particular view of "ego?" It is not something you have read or can reference, where interpretation by others might need to be consideration.

    Re: "You’re not actually getting where I am coming from.."

    Well, I doubt that, since it is pretty much the only thing you reference. I comprehend your ideas of ego and spiritual, I merely discount them for what they are because they are subjective..

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 14, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    It looks like we are going to have another dust up!!

    There is a big difference between expressing the ego to being controlled by the ego, everyone seems to lump the ego in being bad in some way but it's not & in fact, & yes I did say fact, the ego can be as constructive as destructive. The constructive is usually represented by being just expressive of the ego however when it's destructive you will most probably find this is the controlling ego, how destructive/disruptive have you been? Don't just label the ego into one category, this is wrong at the human level of understanding.

    Trying to balance out the playing field is actually quite objective or so I thought!!

    You’re not actually getting where I am coming from probably because of the ego being in control. I have always said I am not afraid to express the ego, look back at some of my comments however you won't because this wouldn't be proving me wrong or catching me out in some way. All you seem to be trying to do is catch me out which represents egotism as opposed to expressing the ego which denotes a controlling ego. I'm not your typical spiritually aware person who fears expressing the ego but you haven't obviously worked that out yet.

    Every time you attack me you are actually proving my point about people who are ego controlled, sense & sensibility go out the door!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 14, 2013

    Re: "Once we see a right or wrong the egos at play again"

    In response to the comment ""I will tell you why you are wrong....," I wrote, "Statements such as these are truly questionable at best.
    They pretend to remove all traces of the subjective experience which in fact embodies all judgment of right and wrong.
    If the commenter intention might have been to say, "I will tell you where I BELIEVE you are wrong".
    We all must (make an affordance) for the belief of other's point of view. But this comment makes the assertion of knowing that which is right, in some absolute sense.

    Is this not "ego?" The answer by the commenters own admission is "Yes."

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 14, 2013

    Re: I'm doing is balancing out the playing field & making people more aware of what is going on here

    That is also a subjective view.
    There is little that you can add that is not your subjective view.
    And that is not a put down by any means, it is your own assessment, an evidenced by the limited discussion that your offer, spirit and whatever you define ego as.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 14, 2013

    G'day Rusty

    This isn't the pot calling the kettle black is it?

    It has been quite obvious you have all along forced your own standards onto others, how dare they use there own reasoning processes, however all I'm doing is balancing out the playing field & making people more aware of what is going on here.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 13, 2013

    Holding to a standard? It applies both ways.
    Commentary of a subjective needs to be understand for what it is.

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 13, 2013

    This is funny, I've obviously upset Dusty a number of times so he's ego is trying any way it can to trip me up, try putting 2+2 together without precise definition & you will end up with a totally incorrect answer.

    “I will tell you why you are wrong within your own personal definition of suffering. “ This isn’t even the full sum however if we separate or totally remove one part of the sum we won’t get a true correct answer. This is dirty tactic to say the least & it seems to be common practice with some people sadly enough. Pointing out a particular point is OK but as long as you don’t put all the emphasis on this like Dusty has once again done here.

    The whole sum was referring to an obvious wrong or incorrect evaluation based on our own perception without adding up all the numbers; we can’t dictate what everyone is thinking or feeling by our own evaluative perception, this denotes only one part of the sum!!

    I call a spade a spade & yes like I have always stated I’m not afraid of expressing the ego, there are no true right or wrongs collectively in spirituality including expressing or even being controlled by the ego.

    As I have also stated a number of times, there is a big difference between expressing the ego to being controlled by the ego, very few people who are controlled by the ego don’t realise they are controlled by the ego. I realise the controlling factors of the ego so it’s unlikely I am being controlled by the ego but there is still a small possibility of this. Awareness itself dilutes any effect a controlling ego has on a person; no one wants to be totally controlled if they can help it especially of their mind & this is why spiritually aware people meditate for example which helps dilute the controlling factors of the ego.

    Yes I have psychosocial methods learnt through being involved in the welfare arena; I either use aggressive methods or passive methods & at time one after the other always for the benefit of my client. What I noticed from a lot of higher educated people than me is they will use these methods immorally & unethically which is quite obvious on this site however I have always used these methods for the benefit of all & never intentionally for my own benefit.

    My adversaries should be able to get something out of this to use against me, their egos couldn’t help themselves!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Dec 13, 2013

    Re: "I will tell you why you are wrong...."

    Statements such as these are truly questionable at best.
    They pretend to remove all traces of the subjective experience which in fact embodies all judgment of right and wrong.
    If the commenter intention might have been to say, "I will tell you where I BELIEVE you are wrong".
    We all must offer for the belief of other's point of view. But this comment makes the assertion of knowing that which is right, in some absolute sense.

    Is this not "ego?"

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 09, 2013

    G'day frequencytuner

    I will tell you why you are wrong within your own personal definition of suffering.

    For one, whose definition are you defining suffering? Everyone physiologically has their own definition of suffering. before I go on I better tell you I worked in the welfare arena twice over in my 50 yrs, I even had a job in charge of my section without attaining a higher education, that alone should tell you something. The reason I'm telling you this is to inform you I know what I am talking about just in case you think you’re conversing with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

    This is a true; there was a young girl who was given a mobile phone from her parents, she absolutely loved it, One day it was stolen the next day she committed suicide. According to your definition of suffering she didn't suffer & this is but the tip of the iceberg. You are obviously measuring & defining suffering physically, mental suffering is much much worse & in fact can induce &/or create physical suffering. This young girl suffered just as much than a starving child in a 3rd world country.

    Pain is optional, is it!! Try telling that to a male nurse who split their spine down the middle or someone who can't afford pain killers or someone in the 3rd world countries. Let's look at a soldier on their own with their leg blown off & again this is only the tip of the iceberg.

    You see ignorance causing pain to a small number of people but I see uncontrolled knowledge causing much prolonged pain to thousands at a time, the two atomic bombs is a good example of this & again this is but the tip of the iceberg, consumerist materialism is hurting countless others.

    I’ve counteracted everything you have said which says what? Suffering is brought on by our own definition or perception, obviously.

  • frequencytuner Dec 08, 2013

    To a child, that xbox being taken does not cause suffering but does cause pain because they have been taught how to attach an emotional value to the machine. Is it the parents who taught the child or simply that they let the western cultural conditioning influence the child? Suffering is such a great discussion topic but must be distinguished from pain. Suffering is unavoidable, pain is an option, albeit a difficult one to ignore. The child will not truly suffer without playing a game, thus the emotional reaction is caused by the change and pain of loss caused by the emotional attachment that the child has with the game. If the child is withheld food for 4 days, the child will suffer, and may experience the pain of hunger.

    Going back to the Noble Truths, the inclination to resist change and remain ignorant is a major cause of both pain and suffering for many people. By opening to what "is" can alleviate a great amount of pain by removing ignorance. For example, if a fire burns down your house, it is finding the perspective to see a new beginning. By allowing what "is" can alleviate a great amount of suffering by accepting change. Same example, it is simply getting on with your changed life.

    Here is a perfect example:

    There was a monk named Hakuin who was well respected for his work among the people.

    In the village, there lived a young woman, the daughter of the food sellers. The young woman became pregnant by her boy friend who worked nearby in the fish market. When the parents found out about this, they were very angry and pressured her to reveal the name of the father. She wanted to protect the young man and blurted out the name of Hakuin as the father.

    After the baby was born, the parents took the baby to Hakuin. They told Hakuin that he was responsible for the baby and left the infant with him. He responded: “Is that so?” And he simply accepted the responsibility for the child without further reaction.

    The monk had no experience with babies. But he began to care for its needs, finding food, clothing, and warm shelter. The other villagers became very angry with Hakuin for his offense and his reputation was trashed. These comments did not affect Hakuin, who continued to put his effort and attention into the care of the baby.

    After several years, the young woman was filled with remorse. She confessed to her parents the name of the true father. They immediately went to see Hakuin, apologized, and took the baby back with them. Hakuin watched as they returned to there home with the child he had cared for since birth and replied “Is that so?”

    ref: http://workingwithinsight.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/the-monk-hakuin-and-the-baby%E2%80%94just-the-way-it-is/

  • mrmathew1963 Dec 07, 2013

    G'day frequencytuner

    Very well said.

    Neither my wife or I have watched TV in over 6 yrs now & yes I do have my own vegie garden however I would call myself a spiritualist like many do just aware of spirituality. The funny thing is I wouldn't have considered becoming spiritually aware even after numerous real life, what we call, spiritual experiences, I would be just as happy expressing the ego however circumstances dictated otherwise.

    Sorry to say but spirituality, especially to a lot of western minded thinkers, is an ego hype. Eckhart Tolle is a good example even though I agree in a lot of what he says. What is Eckhart doing when he writes books & gives lectures? His expressing the ego however on the other hand he tells everyone to rid themselves of the ego, this does not compute!! A true person without the ego is someone who does absolutely nothing because everything we do is ego driven however not necessarily ego controlled. I think Depak Chopra did around about turn on this going by memory but I could be wrong with this.

    I had a discussion with another spiritually aware person into sacred emptiness which makes a lot of sense because it does quieten the mind however I told him that he was judging & that judgment isn't of sacred emptiness. He came back at me with the following: "There's no judging involved...It is factual...Life is suffering...(1st Noble Truth)!"

    So I replied: " It's not Rexsy, the presumption of suffering brings on the illusion of suffering, if we didn’t presume or perceive suffering nothing would be suffering. Don’t get me wrong, suffering isn’t an illusion it’s just not everything, it’s only a part of which is created by our own perception/consciousness.

    Look at this way; if everyone in the world couldn’t perceive suffering would we be suffering? Believe it or not we wouldn’t be. Are we truly suffering if it’s only a perception/presumption?

    Let’s look at this in a different judgemental way; a child in the west has their Xbox taken from them, are they truly suffering if we compare them to a 3rd world child in hunger? The answer is of course no but they perceive they are now let’s compare this reality to a much more chaotic reality, are we suffering? The answer of course is no. We presume too much because we don’t sit within our quietness enough."

    It's hard for a western minded person to practice what they preach mainly because we are brought up to live for/of desire not just for/of a need.

  • frequencytuner Dec 06, 2013

    Very good point to bring up. Diet is incredibly important, but you touched on the larger topic of the collective imbalance. Part of this is controllable, but it must first be made conscious: for example flouride calcifies the pineal gland and damages the thyroid, but not all toothpaste and water is contaminated. It comes down to a matter of options and choices at the individual level. Maintaining a healthy diet is essential in countless ways for full spectrum health. Choosing organic fresh vegetables as opposed to chemically enhanced meats, water as opposed to alcohol of carbonated drinks, more reading and less TV, more walking and less driving etc, all these things are cumulative.

    Back to the spiritual side, on the collective level we find the imbalances that allow chemicals into our food and poisons into our water and air. This is where the spiritual imbalance is: at the collective level. The spiritual thing to do, in this case, is to make those wise decisions and tend your own vegetable and herb garden, if possible, turn off MTV and pick up a book or hobby. Those collective things only perpetuate because individuals participate. The more aware we are of these large collective imbalances, the more able we are to correct them. It all begins at the individual level.

  • bestearth Nov 22, 2013

    Hi all,

    If you enjoyed 'The Enlightenment', you may like Hidden Hand, get ready to have your eyes opened and your awareness altered.


  • bestearth Nov 17, 2013

    Hi Frequencytuner,

    I think it's good that people think health is important especially seeing as the body is our temple ,home, vehicle, container and instrument all at once. I have no problem with the spiritual practices like tai chi and their beneficial effect on health. But physical illnesses, not in all cases do they have a spirit origin. If people eat toxic junk even if they do tai chi or fitness practices, these cannot trump the junk like many people have been led to believe.

    Substances like wheat ,pasturized milks, white sugar, flouridated toothpastes and tap water are toxic to everyone and most people think they are not toxic because they don't make you keel over straight away. They make you keel over very slowly so hardly anyone notices.

    I think many people have it wrong if they think they can eat junk and say prayers or do something spiritual to make up for it.

    It's clear that the body has a phenomenal intelligence operating through it but despite that intelligence, the spirit driving is in charge of what it puts in the mouth. The body will cope with whatever it is as best it can cos that's what it's designed to do. In modern life we are exposed to millions of toxins whic include also emf and geopathic forms. There are practical things that can be done to offset all of them.

    Illness in practically every case,I believe results from and unarrested toxemia that builds to a critical level where the body can no longer hide the damage and symtoms of illness then appear.

  • frequencytuner Nov 16, 2013

    I would like to direct this topic toward another aspect of health. Though it is very true that colon health is vital for physical health, one must remember that the physical manifestation of anything is at the cause of something else, which is non physical. Obviously an open fracture is due to a trauma, I am referring to bodily systems and specifically, organs and the endocrine system. Following ancient Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine, there exists a balance or harmony of certain elements within the human body. The endocrine glands and associated organ are critical for maintaining this balance and require a lifetime of study and and dedicated attention to master, so I will stop there.

    Pertaining to the topic, simple practices like Tai-Chi and Qigong raise awareness of the energies that are encompassing and animating the physical body. With heightened awareness comes greater sensitivity to fluctuations and ultimately leads to greater control of these energies which in turn manifests physical health.

    For those interested in this enormously expansive topic I suggest a primer on the Central Nervous System, Endocrine system, the Charka system, the Color Wheel and the Solfeggio scale.

  • bestearth Nov 15, 2013

    What a waste of money, alot of it is junk, made from coal tar derivatives, GMO corn and synthetic molecules. Best to stay away from big name brands especially if they have hired a celebrity to promote them.

    Colon health is the most important aspect of cleansing. In the early days harsh herbs like senna were used to dislodge impacted wastes in the bowel. They tasted God awful which turned some people off the whole idea of cleansing. So cleansing became associated with herbs. I have done these types of cleanses in the past like those of Hulda Clarke. I have found there are better ways. Like the protocols of the Global Healing Centre which uses a much better ,gentler cleanser called 'oxy powder', using a germanium stabilised magnesium oxide that releases oxygen to help with the cleanse. It gently liquifies the hard stuff so it can be passed out normally. Nothing extreme like enemas.

    It's a shame can't post photos here. I took photos of what came out of me after my first liver flush. Hundreds of liver/gall badder stones and debris. They are made of cholesterol bound with bile and are pea green or tan coloured.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Nov 09, 2013

    "Americans spend an estimated $5 billion a year on unproven herbal supplements that promise everything from fighting off colds to curbing hot flashes and boosting memory. But now there is a new reason for supplement buyers to beware: DNA tests show that many pills labeled as healing herbs are little more than powdered rice and weeds."

    People like Jim will have to run the tests themselves for a subjective analysis.


  • bestearth Nov 09, 2013

    Hi Jim,

    Thanks for the link. I have seen that Mercola interview. I just got the healthy ceramic cookware from Mercola and am enjoying flavoursome food with no questions about leaching chemicals from non stick or metal pans. I think though these efforts here and there are tinker toys compared to nutrition and internal cleansing, not to dismiss though something like grounding which is a significant help as you have experienced directly.

    From the 'Secret To Health' presentation by Dr Group, it is emphasised how important it is to clean the body as toxemia is the primary cause of illness. That simply means that the amount of toxic burden going into a person exceeds those going out via the detoxification pathways.

    There are 3 avenues of injestion.What we eat, breathe and absorb through our skin. There are 5 detoxificaion pathways. Defacation, urination, respiration, perspiration and in women also menstruation. The grounds for illness are set when the TOTAL toxic burden rise beyond the tolerance threshold of an individuals constitution.

    What has this got to do with Awareness?

    In that same presentation by Dr Group, he refers to the findings of Dr Bruce Lipton and also Masura Emoto. Basically if the cellular waters are not clear, full of toxins, heavy metals etc, they distort information streaming in at all times from outside the body. Information does not reach the cells correctly, in some cases bouncing clean off back into the environment. With corrupted information the cells don't operate properly, contributing to illness. That includes brain cells and all others which depend on a clear conductive medium (cellular water both inside and outside the cells) to transfer the information to the various intelligences operating which includes the refined awareness that spiritual people sometimes refer to. So Pure Awareness, the topic of the thread you started depends on the clarity and cleanliness of the physical instrument which is like instant media for the cosmos, that instrument is our body.

    I have often wondered why enlightenment is often portrayed as extrememly difficult to achieve and I am beginning to think it's partly because of toxemia. People clean their cars and houses but never clean their bodies. They put the best oil and fuels in their car but pour junk down their own throat. And maybe that's something to do with Cleanliness being next to Godliness.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Nov 09, 2013


    When attempting to measure the validity of something, my subjective experience is primary and the opinion of authorities is secondary, if considered at all.

    This is where we differ; you consider the opinion of authorities as primary and perpetually post their opinions. As best I can tell your subjective experience is completely ignored.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Nov 08, 2013

    from mercola.com

    * These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. If you are pregnant, nursing, taking medication, or have a medical condition, consult your physician before using this product.

    Disclaimer: The entire contents of this website are based upon the opinions of Dr. Mercola, unless otherwise noted. Individual articles are based upon the opinions of the respective author, who retains copyright as marked. The information on this website is not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified health care professional and is not intended as medical advice. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from the research and experience of Dr. Mercola and his community. Dr. Mercola encourages you to make your own health care decisions based upon your research and in partnership with a qualified health care professional.
    If you want to use this article on your site please click here. This content may be copied in full, with copyright, contact, creation and information intact, without specific permission, when used only in a not-for-profit format. If any other use is desired, permission in writing from Dr. Mercola is required.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Nov 08, 2013

    Hi bestearth,

    No, I have not tried burying myself in the earth like the guy in the documentary because the a.m. temperature in this neck of the woods hovers around freezing. In addition, I have nosy neighbors who upon seeing me naked and burying myself in the earth would call the guys in white coats to haul me away.

    I've come upon a new link where two MD’s discuss grounding and its value in combating diseases related to diabetes, Alzheimer’s, dementia , hypertension, panic disorders, stress, air pollution, insecticides, pesticides, autonomic nervous system, heart rate variability, blood pressure, ELF or electromagnetic forces, stroke, blood clot, inflammation etc. In addition it has benefits related to spirituality.


    After the first few minutes, they move very fast and unless you are clearly focused, you may miss the many benefits of grounding that are addressed.

    Thanks for the link you provided related to cleansing and may go through the various regimens, but for the immediate present, I am content to bask in the benefits of grounding.


  • bestearth Nov 07, 2013

    Hi Jim,

    That's good news. I will try them soon. It makes sense that we are not born with shoes. Often the simple things evade us. Have you tried burying yourself in the dirt like that guy in the documentary?

    I have just completed a 5 day colon cleanse and 5 day liver cleanse following the Global Healing Centre protocols. I was astonished what came out of me the morning after drinking the olive oil to make the liver flush. I collected it in a colander. Hundreds and hundres of gall stones and liver stones. The debris in my liver, I couldn't believe it ,I thought I was relatively healthy. Some of the stones were almost 3/4 inch across. I took photos as scientific evidence. So I'll pass on the info for you or anyone. A clean body will definately improve anyones awareness I think.
    I feel so much better afterwards, lighter and clearer, I feel nimble, clear minded.

    The cleanses are done in a certain order and use specially prepared cleansers all of which are gentle and safe. The order is, with breaks between,

    colon cleanse (5day)
    liver cleanse (5 day )
    parasite cleanse (6weeks)
    heavy metal cleanse(30 days)
    lung cleanse

    So next is the parasite cleanse. the info is all here


    Also have you tried 'Safe Space' radiation protection products? They are said to transform electrosmog into a beneficial field using a holographic technology embedded into a kind of sticker that you just apply to a phone or whatever. I'm looking into them to see if they are legit.


  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Nov 05, 2013

    Hi bestearth,

    I’m almost reluctant to say how the grounding products have helped me, because it borders on miraculous.

    The wall outlets in my home did not have the grounding hole beneath the two slots where the electric plugs are inserted, so I changed three outlets in my home and now there is a grounding hole where the grounding wire is inserted.

    I began with pads that stick to the bottom of both feet connected to a wire that goes into the grounding hole of the wall outlet. I slept with the pads on my feet and also used them when working on the computer;

    I had been taking medications for type two diabetes and back pain for several years and I’m now off both medications. I continue testing my sugar levels daily they reveal that I am no longer diabetic. Contributing to the diabetic problem, I had the habit of overeating and was overweight. I lost the habit of overeating and am now down to a reasonable weight.

    I have moved up to a grounding sheet about two weeks ago and my sleep is deeper and more relaxing. On those occasions when I go to sleep with a minor problem, upon awaking the solution to the problem mysteriously appears.

    The place to go which offers a variety of grounding products follows:


  • bestearth Nov 05, 2013

    Hi Jim,

    I noticed you bought some grounding products. Have you noticed an improvement? I just walk barefoot for a while most days but thinking of getting the grounding bed sheet. I had a dying aloe vera plant, I thought it didn't like something in the soil, after watching that doco called "grounded" I decided to get some fence wire and join the pot to the ground. Amazingly the plant is recovering! I was surprised.

    Also maybe this vid here may be of interest to you it's called "The Secret To Health" by Dr. Edward Group


  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Nov 05, 2013

    You sir, are an artist of humor for the unconsciousness state. Are you capable of appreciating your gift while experiencing a consciousness state?

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Nov 04, 2013

    Why is the discussion always about higher consciousness and never higher unconsciousness?

    There is evidence that awareness is limited by the attention and that consciousness is easily distracted in this manner. Unconsciousness is not.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Nov 01, 2013

    To All

    Ram Dass was formerly Richard Alpert, a professor of psychology at Harvard and friends with Tim Leary who also held that position at Harvard.

    Both, along with a few others at Harvard were sent samples of LSD from Albert Hoffman, the man who first synthesized LSD.

    Eventually, Tim and Richard left Harvard and adopted other roles. Tim became the icon for the psychedelic movement with the advice “Turn on and tune out”. Richard moved to India and began following spiritual teachers and eventually adopted the name Ram Dass.

    The link below provides hundreds of hours of the Ram Dass lectures. Several years ago I heard many of his recorded lectures, but today they take on a much more profound meaning.

    I suggest exploring the site and clicking a lecture that strikes your fancy and after listening to one, let it set in for a while rather than attempting to rush through many of them in order to more quickly to the top of the mountain. I've also found that listening to the same lecture after a few days, provides new value.


    Please don’t abandon Discussions, on this site because it may be fun to observe the role play among participants and also, there may be new worthwhile links to explore.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Oct 28, 2013


    Thanks, I was hoping to get some feedback on this guy before I followed up on his other material. Your feedback was appreciated.

    I would appreciate any comments you have about the Michael Tellinger video below, because he has posted several videos on the net.


    If you have critical comments on the two videos below, I would be very disappointed because I recently spent a few bucks on grounding technology for my home.



    I have not been following Discussions in the dedicated manner that I once did, so if you previously commented on this material please re-post your comments. Thanks, Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Oct 28, 2013

    December 17, 1996 prediction[edit]

    Nidle is known for his prediction that the world would end on December 17, 1996. Nidle, then residing in Walnut Creek, California, predicted that it would happen with the arrival of 16 million spaceships and a host of angels.[1][2][3] When this did not occur, Nidle claimed the angels had transferred humanity into a holographic projection in order to give it a second chance.[3]
    Following his prediction's failure, Nidle removed all reference to it from his website.[4]
    Nidle was "awarded" a Pigasus award, an award designed to expose psychic frauds, for his failed prediction.[5]

    Nidle founded the Planetary Activation Organization (PAO) in 1997, a movement which grew out of his Ground Crew Project group of the 1980s. The PAO predicted that 10,000 alien ambassadors would arrive on Earth in 1997.[6] The PAO also predicted that benevolent extraterrestrials would help transform the earth into a terrestrial paradise by the end of the year 2012.[7]

    ^ Skeptical Inquirer 21: 4. 1997.
    Jump up ^ Lortie, Arthur (December 19, 2012). "Knock, Knock, Knocking on Heaven's Door". Taunton Daily Gazette. Retrieved January 5, 2013.
    ^ Jump up to: a b Jones, Ian; Young, Andy (May 23, 2011). "Apocalypse… not just yet". MSN News. Retrieved January 5, 2013.
    Jump up ^ deVega, Jessica (2013). Guesses, Goofs & Prophetic Failures: What to Think When the World Doesn’t End. Thomas Nelson (publisher). Retrieved January 5, 2013.
    Jump up ^ James, Randi (April 1, 1996). "The Pigasus Awards: 1 April 1997". James Randi Educational Foundation. Retrieved January 5, 2013.
    Jump up ^ Alien Worlds: Social and Religious Dimensions of Extraterrestrial Contact. Syracuse University Press. 2007. p. 311. ISBN 978-0815608585. Retrieved January 5, 2013.
    Jump up ^ Partridge, Christopher (2003). UFO Religions. 978-0415263238: Routledge. p. 294. Retrieved January 2012.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Oct 28, 2013


  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Oct 15, 2013

    Re: "Pure awareness has been referred to as Cosmic Consciousness, Unity Consciousness, Universal Consciousness, Universal Mind, Buddha Consciousness, God Consciousness, The Great Awakening, Spiritual Enlightenment, Oneness with the Universe and of course, Samadhi and Satori."

    When one is dealing with BELIEF one can alway repackage it and sell it under another name. There will always be a buyer for it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Oct 14, 2013

    Comment if you wish, but I will not be posting to any topic for possibly an extended period of time.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Oct 11, 2013

    G'day Mathew,

    I think you may have missed the point of my previous post, but perhaps it would be best to simply let it set for a while and allow others to comment or ask questions.

  • mrmathew1963 Oct 11, 2013

    G'day Jim

    I always have fun with conversing with different parts of my conscious self.

    I just don't think the cacoon is an illusion itself it's just when where in this cacoon we think this is all there is, that's the illusion brought on by existing within this cacoon.

    We are similar in the way we look at this cacoon, I see it as a playground full of all sorts of play things like human emotions in it's varied forms however were we differ is I feel we are playing out the consciousness's knowing in different forms physically instead of just being aware of what one is. By doing this the consciousness expands on it's own awareness of itself in physical form, it creates in physicality what it knows of itself. Every thought & everything we are experiencing within this cacoon is real even though it’s only a small portion of our whole conscious self. Time doesn’t exist in pure consciousness so everything always was it’s just in time it doesn’t seem that way. Time gives us illusions of there being illusions because we can’t think in any other process but of time.

    Strange concept I know & probably sometime in the near future I will probably change my mind again on this but maybe not either!!!

    It’s good to have a discussion with others without banter now & again, thank you.:-)

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Oct 11, 2013

    @ mrmathew1963

    G'day mrmathew

    I expected to see billgreangeans here; he usually posts in what is my early AM.

    I only got about an hour and a half sleep last night, so I may not respond to you as effectively as I thought in our last exchange.

    The human cocoon is a metaphor that was used for the purpose of avoiding the term “illusion” which you indicated an aversion to.

    Consider that the equator doesn't really exist. It is something made up by someone that makes navigation on sea and in the air easier.

    The human cocoon doesn't really exist; it is something made up so that navigation in our conversation would be easier rather than using the term “illusion”.

    Are you having fun? I am.

    There was a time when I referred to what we are doing now is entertaining ourselves on the play field of conceptual thought.

    We’re entertaining ourselves by playing on the play field of conceptual thought to determine what illusion is and what it is not.

    When the universe was created or popped into existence by accident; either way; conceptual thought appeared.

    It is very useful because our lives wouldn’t be as comfortable as they are without air conditioning, heating systems, refrigerators and my favorite invention the recliner.

    I hope this clears things up a bit.

    Mentioning my recliner makes me realize that an hour and a half sleep is not enough, so I’m going to take a nap in my recliner. G'day

  • mrmathew1963 Oct 11, 2013

    G'day Jim

    The human cacoon always existed, to us it seems to have a starting point & an end point but it doesn't, it has always been therefore it can't be an illusion. The illusion is thinking, while in time & space, that everything has a start & end point. We all die & the human race will probably die off eventually but we never really die only in realities of time & space do we seemingly die off. The real illusion is thinking this is all we are & when we die that's an end point so realities like this have got to be an illusion because there is no end point but we think there is.

    If we realised, during our stay in time & space, that there is no end point because we go on plus what ever we experience has always been this reality isn't an illusion however if we think this is all there is & we do have an end point this is an illusion.

    Confusion comes in to play when we talk about physical being, the actual physical experiences are new & in certain states of consciousness we presume, because this physicality is new, it's got to be an illusion however it always existed as pure consciousness. Just because we are experiencing this consciousness in a physical way doesn't make it an illusion only the illusion this is all we are.

    The cacoon does give us false perception of an illusionary existence but we know better.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Oct 10, 2013

    G'day Mathew,

    I think we have the potential to reach agreement, but we may have to play with the term “illusion” a bit.

    I see it as simply a word or concept that can be avoided; lets back up a bit so I can say more clearly what I want to say.

    I recognize the possibility that human existence could be destroyed by someone pushing the wrong button, a huge asteroid that hits us or other events could cause human existence to come to an end.

    So if we can accept the possibility that our human forms will continue to exist on this planet, we can go back and avoid using the term “illusion”.

    I tend to believe that whatever we are is in the process of evolving into something else.

    I’m not talking about the Darwinian form of evolution; I’m referring to an evolution of consciousness, awareness, spirit, mind or whatever term we can agree on.

    So then, if we can agree that we are evolving into something else we can go on, avoid using the term “illusion” and use a metaphor instead.

    We could say that the human experience is a cocoon that causes the experience of space and time.

    When we emerge from the human cocoon, it is not a physical metamorphosis; it is a metamorphosis of consciousness, awareness, spirit or mind that allows us to experience infinity or unlimited existence.

    It is the experience of awe; the experience of becoming something that was never born and will never die.

    As was said in the topic, at present the experience is not permanent, it could last for minutes or few hours, but where we are right now in this process of exiting the cocoon; our exits seem to be limited to a few minutes or hours.

    Upon reentering the cocoon we are back into the experience of space and time.

    I don’t want to give the impression that I’m an authority on anything. I certainly am not. I’m getting this from books and more recently from recorded lectures.

    If anyone wishes to categorize me, it should be a thief who has taken the ideas of others and passed them on.

    There are those who consider me to be an impressive jazz piano player and I would prefer to be categorized as that rather than an authority on anything.

    If this comment puts us on the same page for now, I’ll end my yak, yak. If not, we’ll meet again, in this topic or another.

  • mrmathew1963 Oct 10, 2013

    G'day Jim

    Well conversed & informative.

    I did like the last quote; we are indeed not all what we perceive ourselves to be. The real illusion is thinking this is all there is but it doesn't make this reality an illusion in my mind.

    Infinite universal consciousness is of no time & if there is no time what are we experiencing? At the human level it seems like an illusion however if there is no time everything always existed which includes these illusions of physical realities so if they always existed they can't possibly be an illusion because you need to create an illusion & to create anything you need time which the universal consciousness isn't.

    So what created everything? Time, time always existed obviously so is this saying illusions have always existed? Only in realities of time which we are in but not in realities of no time as we know it. Time is telling us that illusions exist therefore they are not true illusions after all because they were created like us & the universal consciousness of no time is telling us illusions always existed like everything. We are consciousness itself but we were created by time, we didn't actually create ourselves initially, this took a different process which we call time.

    What I am talking about here is two quite distinct consciousness's, one of time & one of no time. We were created by time at the soul level that had to have always existed because everything is of consciousness but not of the same consciousness. Everything has always existed in the universal consciousness including time therefore physical realities but not in physical form just in conscious non-physical form. Time was used to create physical form but remembering this physical form was only pure consciousness in a state of no time so it always existed. There is nothing we think that hasn’t always been but of course the human ego wants to tell us something quite different!!

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