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INCA-ANDEAN ENCOUNTER PRINCIPLES APPLICABLE TO ORDINARY & EXTRAORDINARY CONTACT

Posted April 10, 2012 by Giorgio Piacenza Cabrera in Open

commented on May 28, 2012
by slowlygetnthar

Quote

53

INCA-ANDEAN ENCOUNTER PRINCIPLES
By
Giorgio Piacenza Cabrera

To move human cultures forward in an integral way, we may not only synthesize new theories or meta theories but we may learn from traditional cultures some keys suitable to expand our actual interactions with realities that surpass the one revealed by our physical, biological senses. Science, ‘ufology’ and ‘paranormal’ research are converging to recognize what pre modern cultures were more adept at interacting with. As far as I know, in the Quechua language (actually called "Runa Simi") 'TIN' refers to 'union' or perhaps 'unity'. It is a union that allows interaction. 'Masi' refers to 'equals' or to beings sharing the same level. 'Yana' and 'Yanan' would be opposites as essence and dependence and white and black and these are a terms used to refer to a relational parity, key to reciprocity and social exchanges. 'Yanantin' is more widely known and emphasized as a unique principle in Andean social studies but the former is also part of the social life. The latter concept leads to cooperation, Andean reciprocal justice and various forms of social reciprocity such as communal work and the exchange of services. The former concept leads to a healthy competition among equals and even low scale, ritual warfare. Nature also shows examples of the latter as when cubs and men compete and play to establish status. Now, researcher Javier Lajo would probably emphasize "Yanantin" and parity relations as a unique Andean civilization characteristic surpassing Western and Aryan philosophies which frequently emphasize a principle of ‘unity’. Regarding the voice "IN" he would probably propose that 'IN' (as in "Inca" RULER, "Inti" the solar deity, and “Tawantinsuyo,” or the union of the four regions) also refers to the memory of an Andean, universal deity also originally called "IN."

I personally think that the concepts of 'Yanantin' and 'Masintin' complement each other as both principles would be necessary for interconnected holarchies. In holarchies or hierarchies, both interdependence and equality arise. On the other hand, the word "TINKUY" refers to an "encounter" which creates a common ‘space’ (or, perhaps, more accurately, ‘time’) for actual interactions or for actualizing interactions. I think that these Inca-Andean concepts and practices could be useful for ET contact as with contact with different otherworldly entities. It should include 'Yanantin' reciprocity and a relational 'Masintin' which could be understood as the supplementarity of equals. The latter means that a certain sense of equality (no matter how far advanced in some aspects another entity may be) is also required for a constructive, brotherly relation. It is not be required to engage in competitive ritualized warfare but humans must be able to teach as much as to learn and vice versa. Each may have to hold its ground up to a point as fundamentally equals even without forgetting that their shared hierarchical ‘Masintin’ level also depends upon more inclusive, guiding principles.

'TINKUY' (encounter) is also used in ceremonies to relate with the Apus (mountain deities) and with all other spirits using three well formed coca leaves so that the officiating 'Runa' (or Man) co-creates along with the Apus, spirits and forces of nature the ‘encounter’ having in mind the dark, lower, subconscious, past-oriented, chaotic world and the higher, superconscious, abstract/orderly, future-oriented cosmic world. This encounter space is made of a shared experiential intersection + the creation of a new, sui generis experiential space, both of which conform to create the encounter in which to interact and actualize possibilities. Beings of different “Pachas” may then share a common experiential world. The world of actual experience is called the 'KAY PACHA' or "present world" and, although it may refer to the surface of the Earth (just as the 'UKU PACHA' or lower world also refers to the underworld and 'HANAN PACHA' normally refers to the higher, celestial, sky world of more universal, abstract principles), I think that 'KAY PACHA' can also be taken as any world of actual experience. According to Andean erudite Javier Lajo, 'Pacha" basically refers to TIME and another similar word, "PAQA" is related to earth and space). Thus the "TINKUY" would be the creation of a shared time and a sui generis, new, encounter time. “Runas” or men (and women) are said to inhabit the in-between world and to be able to officiate the 'TINKUY'.

I think that, in order to have harmonious ET encounters and-or encounters with subtle, discarnate beings, it would behoove us to learn ‘Yanantin’ parity and reciprocity and ‘Masintin’ relational equality and thus co-create the ‘TINKUY’ that unifies the human and ET worlds in a shared intersection that also originates an interesting, creatively unique encounter in 'present’ or experiential, actualizing time. Three intersecting circles may be more appropriate to visualize this. I think that, up to a point every interactive encounter by force already has some degree of ‘TINKUY’ but that, nevertheless, it can improve. There may be many things, more technologically advanced beings as well as beings from all kinds of alternative realities may already learn from us. In a sense, as humans of the ‘middle world’ we would be able to officiate in order to co-create the union of TINKUY between a lower, subconscious, past- dependent Pacha with a higher, superconscious, future-dependent Pacha. This 'TINKUY' (the ‘time’ or, perhaps, ‘place’ of encounter) would be in the experiential present and, once created, would –perhaps- be lasting as the word ‘TIN’ also signifies a lasting encounter. What is required to ‘officiate’ as a shaman bridging the worlds is humbleness, acceptance (through sentiment) of a greater divine Source and respect. In this way we don’t force things to happen. We humbly recognize and call, align with what naturally comes accepting all worldly or otherworldly manifestations with natural simplicity and respect. Then the ‘Chakana’ or bridge connecting the realities can form and be stabilized by exchanging services with fair reciprocity and (hopefully growing) degrees of equal learning and teaching.

Sources:

The following are good sources of information that may complement each other. The first is perhaps more literary in scope and the second is perhaps more politically inclined.

Edmer Calero del Mar on "Masintin"
http://www.ifeanet.org/publicaciones/boletines/31(2)/153.pdf

Javier Lajo on “Parity,” “Yanantin,” “Tinkuy”
http://www.herbogeminis.com/IMG/pdf/Escritos_Javier_Lajo.pdf

  • 53 Comments  
  • slowlygetnthar May 28, 2012


    Okay, Jim, I'll try what you suggest...just realize I still have a driver's license in this dimension and will be communting major thoroughfares daily....

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 28, 2012

    slowlygetnthar.

    The stream model appears linear because you are experiencing it through the limitations of your conceptual modeling.

    If you detach the stream from your conceptual modeling and allow it to drift through the multi-dimensional nature of awareness and are sufficiently proficient at this, you will see the tangerine trees and marmalade skies and even white orbs floating leisurely around your boat.

  • slowlygetnthar May 28, 2012

    Jim, the stream model is too linear. I like the more multi-dimensional models, but string theory is not porous enough for me.

    Anyway, I am still looking for tangerine trees and marmalade skies and whatever might be flying around them!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 28, 2012

    Off topic?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 17, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    Row. row, row your boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.

  • slowlygetnthar May 17, 2012


    Are we also shifting to a more "doing" world than a more "thinking" world?

    The same day I am reading your comment about the paradigm shift to less ego-centered reality, I had been listening to IT people discuss how freedom of information changes the game of "what constitutes knowledge" and how we define "professional competency." We are losing our newspapers as info becomes more free and accessible as well~what constitutes "reliable sources" has shifted. People can attend free universities at Harvardx and MITx, (but they can't get degrees without tuition)....Employers are stating that they are now considering hiring competent people, even if they don't have degrees, because they are less expensive.

    To me, along with the pay system for adjuncts at higher ed institutions around the country, this all constitutes a sorta mass disinvestment in credentialism, intellectualism, individualism, and along with what you are suggesting, egotism. So, maybe it is happening, on many levels, in many different ways and for various, combined reasons. Maybe the only thing that truly will distinguish one person as valued above others, in the US, anyway, is his/her ability to gross bizillions of dollars in profit.

    Sadly, I just don't feel optimistic, as you seem to be, about where this is going. If "reality tv" programming is a litmus of the state of public consciousness, I fear we are doomed, and I am usually an optimist. Please, cheer me up and give me a new way to think about this...

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 16, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    My May 5th comment in this topic along with my last two recent comments to you provides credible evidence that free will is an illusion.

    This information is being released to the public in books, magazines and journals. It represents a paradigm shift for those who are capable of thinking outside the box. Until now we have only speculated about the paradigm shift.

    What we are talking about is abandoning the ego on a scale previously considered unimaginable.

    It is inconceivable that IONS is not aware of this. It is a mystery why IONS is not discussing this and assisting members to adjust to it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 15, 2012

    There has been a recent explosion of writing by neuroscientists and psychologists about how "science shows us" that we don't have free will. The problem with this work is that it confuses several quite different issues. Once we sort it out, we find that there have been in fact some important discoveries about the nature of our autonomy, such as it is. These will not require us to radically change our policies regarding responsibility and punishment‹as some have suggested‹but they call for some significant reforms in our thinking.

    http://www.santafe.edu/research/videos/play/?id=e40694db-e5a2-410f-9042-6b4808ff90f6

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 15, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    This is an addendum to my previous comment.

    I recently engaged in a discussion with a PHD who was knowledgeable about what is occurring at the cutting edge of science. We discussed three topics:

    l. The material world as presented to us by our sensory experience is an illusion.

    2. Freewill is an illusion.

    3. The sense of self which believes that it experiences free will is an illusion. This was expanded upon by recognizing that although we exist within the universe and as such, are an expression of the universe, we somehow experience that we exist separate from or independent of the universe. This is the illusion of a separate self addressed in esoteric literature.

    There was a lot of chuckling during our talk. It was concluded that the only rational response to all this is to maintain a lightheartedness and a sense of humor.

    It was also concluded that when interacting with others, it is best to pretend that we are not knowledgeable about all this. This allows us to interact with others as “normal” folks interact with each other.

    I have been enjoying a state of mind which incorporates both these conclusions. I interact with others as though I am not knowledgeable about all this, but generally experience a quiet and unnoticeable sense of humor in my interactions with others.

    Being aware of all this information contributes to an effortless experience. Rephrasing, to the degree that all this acts as a context for your state of mind, there is very little or no effort is required to exist on this strange and fascinating planet.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 15, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    This link takes you to a book entitled “The Universe Solved”. Scan down to page 12 where FREE WILL appears in bold print. On the next page [13] Dean Radin’s experiment is discussed. At the end of the next paragraph it states “This ideal essentially boils down to us being nothing more than robots. Are you okay with that?”

    That last question is not mine, it is quoted from the book, but you may answer it if you wish.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=xB4wuDs8qCcC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=presentment+dean+radin&source=bl&ots=LWPObf6ExS&sig=QDSe75ep94cuyqxeJFJ-Aq5EuWU&hl=

  • slowlygetnthar May 15, 2012


    Jim, this is a continuation from the other thread, but an attempt to reconnect to the free will remarks you made earlier.

    I am not trying to argue or hold your feet to the fire re: free will. I was wanting to say that I don't think that knowing ahead of time that something is coming precludes free will (as per the research you described). I think we do pick up information before it arrives. Info, such as the 911 events, were picked up on before they occurred. A friend likened this sort of pre-knowledge experience, to me, as a boat going through the water. The boat moves through the water, pushing water ahead of it, to its sides, as well as creating a wake. Information about events is picked up collectively, on an unconscious level, ahead of an occurrence as factors align to bring the event into "material reality.' It doesn't mean we don't have free will.

  • slowlygetnthar May 12, 2012


    Jim & MarcusT, I was reading Yogananda's _Autobiography of a Yogi_, last night, and he is describing an incident where a disciple, Ram Gopal, is sitting on the banks of the Ganges and sees two nebulous lights descend, both materializing into gurus, Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya. In another section of the book, there is the story of a guru waiting for his disciple to reincarnate and return to their sacred practices.

    Anyway, I was thinking again about the light orbs and various other visitations from subtle beings. In the cases described by Yogananda, I was also reminded of Chinese stories of Kuan Yin and other Boddhisattvas travelling as lights or comets, to visit themselves upon the faithful or those in need. In our modern context, so much of our thinking about lights/visitations has been conditioned around these being as "extraterrestrials," ghosts, or lost, disembodied spirits seeking a channel/residence. What if they are not, but may be gurus we had in past lives, or Boddhisattvas, or other beings~~not really acknowledged in modern alien lore? What if these are actually beings from our past lives keeping tabs on us? still instructing us? waiting for us to reincarnate with them~~wherever they may be?

    Somehow, this makes more sense to me than visits from other planets, even though it sounds completely ~CRACKPOT FANTASY~ on its own. In light of Yogananda's stories, I just can't rule it out, as a possibility.

  • slowlygetnthar May 09, 2012

    This leads me to another thought about crop circles...if they are of unknown origin, then, folks cannot copyright them as symbols, right? If they are not copyrighted, only photos of them are...what are the implications of a company trying to adopt a crop circle design as their company logo? Would it be contested and by whom? on what legal grounds would a claim to the symbol be upheld?

  • slowlygetnthar May 09, 2012

    Dedanoe, Are you having some sort of issue with IONS? Why are you chiming in with this, when folks are aware of these rules?

  • dedanoe May 08, 2012

    everything you say here is recorded and becomes property of IONS without them giving you a penny in return.

    1) You agree to be courteous in your comments, and not to submit any material that reasonably could be considered to be abusive, uncivil, hateful, or threatening.

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    is libelous or defamatory.
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    impersonates others.
    infringes on the intellectual property of others.
    is “off topic”—unrelated to the topic or to the comments of others.
    is commercial or promotional.

    3) You agree that you are fully responsible for the content you submit and understand that IONS is not responsible for content submitted by any user.

    4) By entering any commenting area, you acknowledge that reliance on material posted by other commenters will be at your own risk.

    5) You agree that all submitted comments become the sole property of IONS, and give IONS permission to use the content you submit in other forms – for example, in reporting an article for Noetic Now or other Institute properties.

    IONS has many terms including not giving you the opportunity to state a term of your own.

  • slowlygetnthar May 08, 2012


    Thanks...I will just get Jim to channel me. He can type better, I'll bet...

    I wish there were more coherent study and information on visitations of subtle beings, without all the hype & conspiracy theory around UFO's and fringe strangeness of faerie faith, and paranormal investigation, etc.,...There are folks out there trying to break down barriers and establish methodology for studying these things, but they live in a twilight, with mainstream science calling them pseudoscientists and society labelling much of this stuff taboo, due to religion, or lunacy/imagination.

    Are these visitors bleed-throughs from some other dimensional reality, or beings who inhabit this one with us, but we are not attuned to the frequency to see very often?

    These visitations sure seem more common than the popular discourse would lead us to believe...and at a time when many people are not listening very closely to the infinite hum of the Tao via mediation, contemplation, prayer, whatever practices...Why would this be?

  • moretocome May 06, 2012

    @ slowlygetnthar-

    In answer to your prior questions:

    Q: Your experiences are really quite fascinating~~to be so lucid in your meditation. So, is this being you touched a facet of your psyche (internally generated) or a visitor (externally motivated)?

    A: I definitely believe this entity/being to be external to me. I felt his two legs standing next to me while I was sick on the couch (even though I couldn't see him). This was while I was wide-awake (many months prior to any meditative viewing of him).

    Q: Have you studied kalachakra?

    A: No, I have never studied it, however, I do meditate approx. 3-4+ hours per day. :-)

    @ Jim-

    No problem getting me confused with slowlygetnthar. She can speak for 'me' anytime...lol.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 05, 2012

    Moretocome,

    I've recently noticed that two of my comments on 4-4 were addressed to you, but should have been addressed to slowlygetnthar. I hope this did not create confusion for you.

    With all this talk about the illusion of self, I must have gotten your two illusions of self confused.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 05, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    I’ve returned to answer your question. I’ll post a section of the paragraph in which your question appears, to insure that everyone is on the same page:

    “This suggests~correct me if I am on the wrong track~ that you mean creative process as an intentional and conscious activity.”

    I believe that what you are getting at is I have expressed the position that our brain interprets wave forms from the electromagnetic spectrum and presents them to us in the form of thoughts. You will recall this is expressed by Jack Kornfield, a leading voice in Buddhist thought. This position denies the existence of free will.

    Due to the strong religious and philosophical beliefs that support freewill, I have been reluctant to even use the term “freewill”. Now that I have been forced to openly declare my position that freewill is an illusion, it is appropriate that I explain why there appears to be a contradiction in my posts and then defend my position that freewill is an illusion.

    When I click on a word, my word processor brings up the dictionary definition of that word. I clicked on imagination and recklessly included the words “a creative process” in my sentence, I added the words “within a positive context” simply to make it appear as a complete sentence. [My bad]

    Now I will attempt to defend that freewill is illusion by showing that the position is confirmed by neurologists, biologists and others, as well as the Buddhist position previously mentioned.

    If you Google “freewill illusion” you will find several sites that address this, what follows are a few links, there are others.

    http://phys.org/news186830615.html

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-free-will-an-illusion#comments

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/is-free-will-an/

    http://chronicle.com/article/Is-Free-Will-an-Illusion-/131159/

    http://www.samharris.org/free-will

    Dean Radin has done experiments where the subject’s EEG shows a response prior to the presentment of the stimulus. Dean wisely does not discuss free will, but these experiments could be interpreted as an argument against free will. I read of these experiments somewhere on this site, but can’t find the location now.

    You may recall my post “A Response to Slowlyetnthair” in which there was an article taken from a Hindu site entitled “The Planet of Advanti”. This article reflects the invalidity of freewill in Hinduism.

    http://www.noetic.org/discussions/open/316/#comment_5819

    Now that I have shown evidence from neurologists, biologists, Buddhism and Hinduism that free will is illusion, I will depart from the tedious domain of conceptual thought. :-)…Jim

    P.S. I will not participate in debates related to free will because it would be futile. It is near impossible to reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into.

  • slowlygetnthar May 05, 2012


    If you find the site re:Sagan, again, please let me know. I know many regarded him as a pop star, but he was so arrogant, I was often repulsed by him. Still, the idea of sending the message up was cool.

    Was just thinking that if our brains are receiving and analyzing info based on mathematical configurations, it makes sense the crop circles, their sacred geometry would make sense to us or transmit something to us on the subconscious level. Maybe, if we really had a grasp or memory of our origins, we would consciously recognize the meaning of the crop circle graphics.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 04, 2012

    moretocome,

    I visited the crop circle site again after providing the link to it.

    I found that clicking on certain pictures of the crop circles sometimes brings you to sites which discuss that particular crop circle.

    One site was very interesting; it provided a video in which several individuals discussed a specific crop circle. It was a duplicate of what Carl Sagan sent into space with that collection of songs, drawings and other material which was sent into space several years back.

    It was the opinion of the group, that the minor difference between what Sagan sent and the crop circle contained a message relative to who was sending or creating the crop circle. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate what I clicked to bring up the video. If anyone happens upon it, post something and let me know where it can be found.

    Regarding your interest in a question that I avoided responding to; there are times that I am receptive to conceptual dialogue and times when I am not. That may reflect a deficiency in my communications, but I tend to go with what could be referred to as the inner flow. I will reread your question at another time and attempt to respond to it. If I forget remind me in a few days….Jim

  • slowlygetnthar May 04, 2012

    No, I did not really expect you to pontificate on the quantum construct of reality, but it is the question to which we all keep going back, as one of the primary root questions in all these discussion threads.

    Love the crop circle site. I hope that on the subconscious level, I understand some message conveyed in them. Must get to Avebury to see one, someday, and stand a few pints in the local pub. If subtle beings were crop grafitti-ing, here, in Colorado, their designs would be of an angus steer, or the symmetry of cow pies and cowboy hats, I imagine.

    Was listening to an old Juluka/Savuka song: "You've learned to live inside this space that connects each human chain, and you say you've got some peace of mind now. But I say you're waiting all the same, with an ache that has no name, til you feel the fresh brush by of the invisible wind..."

    Long road trips (2000miles+) will give me silent mind. Dunno what it is about seeing all the lines on the highway roll out ahead and behind me, but it empties my mind, taking out the kinks and mundane. At the end of a long hot day of driving in Wyoming, once, just at dusk, I came upon white Brahmins standing in a brief misty rain shower, scented of sage, dust, and sweet yellow banner. I sometimes return there, while in my armchair, for some silent mind.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 04, 2012

    Moretocome,

    Back in history, in an attempt to grasp a better understanding of reality, the decision was made to divide reality into separate parts, give each part a name, place it in a category and define its characteristics. Essentially, what we did was conceptualize the whole of reality.

    In this accomplishment we also conceptualized ourselves. A segment of reality was given the common name “human”; the species name “Homo sapiens” and family name “hominid”. Now have a clear understanding of what we are. [Intended sarcasm]

    Much has been accomplished in our conceptualizing the whole of reality, we now have the ability to discuss and think about concepts such as imagination, illusion and consciousness etc. [even though we have not really defined or conceptualized consciousness in a manner satisfying to everyone].

    In order to appreciate this next part, you must be willing to go down the rabbit hole a bit further.

    What has been lost in the conceptualization of reality is, to a large degree, we have lost our ability to experience and appreciate the silent mind. I consider the silent mind as a doorway to an appreciation of the spiritual domain. True appreciation of the spiritual domain does not rely on either sensory experience or conceptualization.

    Of course, we cannot reside permanently in the silent mind and still interact in this strange world, but we can employ discrimination relative to what extent we wish depart from the silent mind and participate in concept manipulation.

    It is not my intention to be flippant about your question “How does the world create itself?”, but I hope you don’t really expect me to exit the silent mind to a degree that I can speculate on this question by exhibiting prowess in the manipulation of concepts.

    I also am also not really motivated to enter the world of conceptualization and discuss at length if imagination is a creative process and therefore an intentional and conscious activity. Answering this or attempting to answer it also depends on how willing one is to depart from the silent mind and engage in concept manipulation.

    In engaging in such ambitious adventures of concept manipulation as you request, I would be experiencing mental masturbation, which could provide some level of intimacy between us, but I am motivated to remain in the comfort of the silent mind as much as possible without being rude.

    As I stated in responding to you in another topic, when conceptualizing there is value in recognizing if we are really going to accomplish something, entertaining ourselves or simply engaging in the habitual behavior of accommodating the allure of concept manipulation.

    I enjoy responding to your comments, even though I do not provide answers to your challenging questions.

  • slowlygetnthar May 04, 2012

    Well, Jim, our dialogue here, have made me wonder where is the defining line between imagination and the illusion we create here? I like the way you expressed it with regard to a "creative process within a positive context." This suggests~correct me if I am on the wrong track~ that you mean creative process as an intentional and conscious activity.

    The illusion of this world, daily life, rush hour traffic...how are these generated? It would seem these are not from contextualized intentional & conscious activities {Jeez, I hope we could imagine having more group fun than bumper-to-bumper!}

    What about the most basic of physical realms in which we materialize/inhabit bodies? Do you think there is some set of rules in the multi-dimensional universe, we agree to them, and we manifest according to the rules?

    What I meant with the Madonna reference, elsewhere, is that it seems we have agreed there is only one singer, Madonna. Pretending/imagining we are she does not make us so, so there seem to be rules governing the fine line between imagined reality & the reality we agree is real.

    How does the world create itself?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 04, 2012

    This link is long, but it takes you to one site revealing pictures of crop circles. If we accept that only a fraction of these are not manmade, we have the opportunity to appreciate or even love the unknown.

    You may have to copy and paste it to your browser.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=crop+circle+photos&hl=en&site=webhp&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=BemsTf77DoyI0QHBytWnCw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=530#q=crop+circle+photos&hl=en&sa=X&site=webhp&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=1&biw=853&bih=564

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 03, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    Please forgive me, switching between topics caused me to be confused.

    I responded to your last question “But it gets down to the question: Is everything just imagination?” thinking it was asked in A Second Try and I thought you were making the point that we are not involved with illusion, but imagination.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 03, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    I’m not sure what you are seeking with your question “But it gets down to the question: Is everything just imagination?”

    Imagination often implies a creative process within a positive context. I see the possibility of getting involved in lengthy discussions of tangential material.

    Think of your experience of appreciating the beauty of a flower without allowing conceptualization to come in and dilute the beauty of the experience with a lot of analyzing or concept formation.

    When I acknowledge that material reality is an illusion created by our limited sensory experience, I tend to drift toward an appreciation of the spiritual domain which is an intuitive experience that does not rely on sensory experience. In the purest form of such an experience there is no need for conceptualization.

    It is not possible to stay in such a state and interact in this world, but touching on such a state occasionally colors or influences all our experiences. Perhaps this is one value of meditation.

    I’m starting to talk and feel some kind of an authority and that is far from my intention and outside of my comfort zone. Everything I have to say is communicated in the previous three paragraphs.

  • slowlygetnthar May 02, 2012

    Jim, Everything you have written is cogent with our brains being electromagnetic receivers, so it all makes good sense. I had not thought about the properties involved in receiving and analyzing info~~our brains as info processors of the waves intercepted. I had only thought about our brains as processors/constructors and analyzers of waves & particles via language (there is evidence the brain uses Fourier waves to produce and analyze language).

    Your point is well-taken about differentiating between imagination and what we are actually experiencing so as to fend off insanity. That's part of the SCHISM between the rational mind knowing what it is normally doing, and then, having these light orbs and potato mongers intrude into "reality." There is the mental gymnastic of trying to stretch the rational mind to incorporate them into normal reality, knowing they are not imagination, but knowing they are not "normal reality" and not delusional thinking, either. It is unsettling at a primal level.

    Plus, as you suggest, there is the interjection of thought into us via the light orb or channeling experience. I think some of this info accumulation/injection might be on such a deep subconscious level, though, that we wind up actualizing things without knowing from where the original impetus arose~~not in a zombie-fied fashion, but that the subliminal suggestions grow into us and we morph, eventually, into embodiments of ways of thought that were not original to us, if we had been left to our own chimp-minded devices.

    Still we are constructing our reality. . . imagining while simultaneously actualizing it? {thinking of John Lennon, "Imagine," here}

    But it gets down to the question: Is everything just imagination?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 02, 2012

    Moretocome,
    I also am pleased to see this discussion open up.

    Regarding my 3 hour experience, I have discussed it lightly on several occasions. I have learned that describing it in detail to others has little value for them; it really is not responsive to verbal communication. I will now contradict myself and say something about it.

    I will simply say that I was no longer a human sense of self, but something [perhaps consciousness or awareness are terms that could be used] that was never born and will never die. It was much more real and profoundly vivid than what I experience as I write this.

    Whatever I became was consumed with a profound sense of awe and a form of direct knowing that material reality, along with the sense of self that experiences it are primitive forms of experience.

    Regarding your encouragement to open up communications with “the other”, I have something to say about that and have decided to treat is as a separate comment.

    I’ll try to arrange things so this appears first and the other second.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 02, 2012


    Moretocome and slowlygetnthar,

    This is in response to your comments about communication with “the other”.

    Jack Kornfield is one of the leading Buddhist teachers in America. A practitioner for over 40 years, he is one of the key teachers to introduce mindfulness and vipassana meditation to the West.

    A few years ago I ordered a six hour lecture by him. He communicated one thing that altered my perception or experience of reality. You may be familiar with the first part of this; it is provided only as a context.

    He described how our five senses represent our brains interpretation of the energy or waves from the possibly infinite system of wave forms which comprise the known universe.

    For example, we are rarely aware that there or no colors in reality, but just about every text book on physiology instructs that our experience of color is simply our brains interpretation of different wave lengths of reflected light. This can be applied to our experience of the other senses.

    Now comes what I consider the potential for a transformative experience….if we are willing to accept what he says. I accept it unconditionally.

    He states that the experience of thought is a sixth sensory experience i.e. our brain is translating energy from the field and presenting it to us in the form of thoughts.

    Anyone who has peeked down the rabbit hole should conclude that humans are not the highest form of intelligence that exists. So it is not unreasonable to conclude that these higher forms of intelligence may have the means to manipulate or influence the energy that our brains translate into thought. [This may be extreme speculation, but it works for me; my motto, if it works use it]

    We are a step in this direction with brain scans and neuroscience. I’ve read of machines that can induce OBE’s or the euphoria which often accompanies mystical experiences.

    In my opinion, what seems to be required is that we set aside our ego mind and be receptive to the influence of other forms of intelligence. Saying this another way, learn to ignore what has been referred to as the drunken monkey mind and be open or receptive to what comes in.

    Naturally, some caution must be taken to insure that one is not being overly influenced by imagination, which could lead to insanity. After a while, one learns to distinguish between value and what could be imaginative nonsense.

    Although I have cut off direct communication with “the other”, I do notice its occasional influence. For example, in rereading my recent response to slowlygetnthar, I notice one or two things seem to contain value, but are beyond what could be considered my “normal” cognitive experience i.e. they are things that I have not previously considered or even reflected upon.

    I hope that I’ve not been excessively conceptual. ;-)

  • slowlygetnthar May 02, 2012


    Jim, When this being communicated through you, what were your physical experiences while this occurred? Were you cognizant of the experience while it was happening? What was the nature ~gist~ of the communications?

    One of the most fascinating cases of channeling I read was that of Jane Roberts. I particularly was compelled by her book THE NATURE OF PERSONAL REALITY. It changed my thinking about how our daily reality is formulated. I should go back and reread it to see how my thinking has evolved and see how I understand the book differently, now.

  • slowlygetnthar May 02, 2012


    Moretocome, This is an interesting thread. The missing time thing is curious, but if anyone travelled with them, I think it may have been my boyfriend, who was "not present" for the first light visit. The other curious thing is the seamless sense of time I experienced. I specifically set the clock before getting in bed, so know what time it was when I saw this thing. My neighbor had seen the lights a half hour earlier than I did. When I saw the craft, then, went to bang on my neighbor's door, I experienced a minute of time or so. This is where the hour seems to be missing, yet my sense of sequence of events is seamless.

    I do think I travelled with the dream beings of my childhood. I don't think I travel with these orbs that visit. I think they deliver something~~information, but I know not what.

    Your experiences are really quite fascinating~~to be so lucid in your meditation. So, is this being you touched a facet of your psyche (internally generated) or a visitor (externally motivated)?

    Have you studied kalachakra?

  • moretocome May 02, 2012

    @ slowlygetnthar

    I'm really enjoying yours and Jim's posts. Blessings to you both. :-)

    I loved your experience with the craft and the potatoes. It made me laugh as well because it is so true; the deeper you go with 'them', the more bizarre it gets. I find it amazing that the restaurant proprietor opened up to you about it. It shows that you have the ability for others to feel comfortable and trusting around you.

    Regarding the orbs, a gentleman contacted me at no-self.com awhile back and he described the same/similar thing. He's located in Sweden. He had many varied experiences with other-world beings. He was very 'awakened' (for lack of a better term) and he had a deep understanding of Truth. By the way, your missing time episode would indicate that you may have 'travelled' with them somewhere. No memories though?

    Regarding the red-eyed, black-robed figure you ask about, he is definitely deeply connected to me. I also feel love towards him. This is where it gets even more bizarre...lol. I later went back to the scenario a second time in meditation. I'm once again back in the middle of the room surveying the situation where he is standing over me on the couch looking down at me. I am behind him in the middle of the room. For some reason, I get the idea to touch him on his left shoulder from behind him. So, while in deep meditation, I reach out my right hand and touch him on his left shoulder. When I did that, it felt as if my hand was touching 'my' shoulder (even though it was his shoulder). In other words, 'he' felt like me in some very weird way.

    It's even stranger because he doesn't even have a human shoulder. He has a bony shoulder, but it's not a human form. Again, in meditation, I've looked to see what lies beneath the robe. I'll have to leave this for another post, but I promise to share more.

    In any case, I hope I don't get banned from this site...LOL....Jim, can you pull some strings for me? :-)

  • moretocome May 01, 2012

    @ Jim
    I was really pleased to see this discussion open up.

    Regarding your 3 hour experience, please direct me to the details on it. I would love to read more. Your mention of the black caped figure is truly fascinating. It is quite a "coincidence". If you have more to share on him, please do so (I have the sense you have more for us...lol).

    Regarding your communications/writings, I would encourage you to open up to the communications again. 'They' are attempting to contact and communicate with you. Very cool. :-)

  • slowlygetnthar May 01, 2012

    The orbs weren't connected to the potatoes, only that craft. I don't know what the orbs transmit to me or take from me. I have no gray being memories or abduction experiences to report.

    When I was younger, I had dream visitors that were humanoid with owl eyes or owl-like with human heads. The humanoids may be connected to the orbs. The owls may have been something else more akin to the Tibetan Buddhist spirit guides, sometimes called dakhini.

    Yep, this all sounds pretty psychotic, alright--just exactly why I don't talk about it with others very often--for fear of making friends with abductors carrying straight jackets!!!

  • slowlygetnthar May 01, 2012


    Wow, Moretocome's experience with the caped entity is spooky. It does remind me of the folks who lived near the place where the author of the THE SHADOW lived. Apparently, unbeknownst to the author's neighbors, Gibson (?) was writing all these stories about the comic book character, the Shadow. The neighbors kept seeing a cloaked man in black clothing and brimmed hat lurking about the vicinity of the building and on the nearby street. So, it would seem that Gibson created a mental image of this fellow that was strong enough to materialize in physical reality, though there are no reports of it interacting with people, intelligently.

    Moretocome, did you have the sense that this visitor of yours wandered in or was he connected to you? or your psyche?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 01, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    It appears as though the white light orbs are not attracted to factories or potatoes; it is you that they are enamored with :-) I can’t seem to get this smiley face right.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 01, 2012

    Moretocome,

    These recent discussions seem to create the willingness be open about our experiences.

    I have discussed previously about the three hour experience, about forty years ago, in which I entered a state that provided an all consuming, life changing experience of ecstasy and awe, beyond what words can describe.

    Your mention of a tall figure dressed in a black cape similar to what monks wear allows me to discuss an aspect of the experience not previously discussed.

    As the experience was coming into fruition, there was a tall figure in a hooded black cape, as you described, that appeared in my mind’s eye. I did not see his face because it was covered by the black hood that he wore. He seemed to communicate telepathically I was being guided into the experience and then he faded as the experience began.

  • slowlygetnthar May 01, 2012


    Jim, Quickly~before I dash to work~~yes, I have moved three times since the 1992 experience. I lived in that place til 1999. I moved to the deep South (4yrs), then, the West coast (4 years), then, to the Rockies(5yrs). The white lights have been showing up since I lived on the West coast. I wonder if the 1992 lights opened me up to be receptive to the white light visitations--receiving them consciously.

    I don't doubt that you channeled something. I will share a strange channeling episode I had in the early 80's, later. I also want to read the new postings here, and reply.

    It feels risky, but good, to share this stuff with others. So, thanks!

  • moretocome May 01, 2012

    CONTACT / SIGNAL FROM THE SKY-

    Shortly after the dream, I was looking up at the sky out of a window at around 3am in the morning. I tend to stay up really late at night. I was briefly enjoying the stars and sending out loving energy to all I surveyed.

    As I was doing this, I thought about the prior experiences above. Then, I said the following, "I know that you are able to access my thoughts, so show me that you're out there. Give me a sign that you can hear me."

    Immediately after mentally saying this, there was a flash of white light way, way up in the dark sky. It only lasted a second, but it occurred right after I asked for a sign. It was very quick and I can only describe it as a brief flash of white light (as if someone turned on a flashlight and then turned it immediately off). Of course, it wasn't a mere flashlight because it was so far up in the sky. I have never seen anything like it before. I also know that it wasn't any type of plane, helicopter, falling star, comet, etc.

    In any case, I have no doubt that other life forms exist and are connected to us. From my perspective, no matter what shape that MANIFESTED FORM takes, that FORM is still Source (i.e. Consciousness, God, whatever label you choose). I look forward to greater contact. :-)

  • moretocome May 01, 2012

    [PART 2]

    ANOTHER MEMORY SURFACED-

    Another incident (years ago) that suddenly came to mind was a time when I was in our house all alone (because we were remodeling). At the time, I felt extremely uncomfortable being there alone. In fact, I locked the master bedroom door and kept the lights on at night. I had never done this before in my life. I felt like I was being watched. Again, at the time, I thought that it must be spirits, ghosts, etc. :-) Now, due to the information that has come forth, I feel that it was extraterrestrials.

    I remember waking up in the middle of the night seeing intensely bright light outside the window. The window has blinds; however, the light was so bright it seemed to almost light up the entire room. I remember being confused by the bright light because I couldn't figure out why there would be a "work crew" outside working on stuff in the middle of the night. That’s all that I remember. Everything else with respect to that incident feels blocked from my conscious mind at this point. Although further details haven't surfaced on this incident, I feel as though these visitors are here to be of help in some way.

    With both of these incidents, once I understood what was really going on, all fear completely vanished. At the present time, I have no doubt that they are here to be of assistance, not interference. Also, there is a feeling of deep connection with them.

    DREAM-

    After the above memories came through, I wanted to have further contact with them. So, one evening (while in meditation) I asked to be contacted that night while I was asleep. That night, I had an intensely vivid dream where this 'friend' I had never met before in this lifetime came over to talk to me. It was weird because he felt like a friend of mine.

    He had short, bright, blond hair and the brightest, BLUEST eyes I have ever seen. He was extremely intelligent. He was also extremely confident and bold (In the dream, he came right up to me without any reservation, hesitation, caution, etc.). I also remember him saying something that was so funny that I remember actually laughing in my sleep. I can't remember what he said, but it was absolutely hilarious!

    In any case, a few days later, I came across a picture of a "Tall, Blue-Eyed Alien" online. Even though his hair color was blond in the dream, the picture was almost an exact replica of the ‘friend’ I had seen in the dream. My jaw dropped when I saw it. Since I can’t attach the picture, I am placing it as my current Avatar.

    [Post cont.]

  • moretocome May 01, 2012

    Great discussion!

    Months after my No-Self experience/realization on 2/5/11, I was strongly drawn to information (and websites) about extraterrestrials, UFOs, etc. I was always mildly interested in other life forms, however, this was different. Quite unexpectedly, I became extremely interested in knowing more.

    With a desire to know more, I relied on my customary way of gathering information (of any kind). I went 'within' during meditation and I asked WHY I felt so unexpectedly drawn to the UFO phenomenon. Then, I let it go. Here's what surfaced:

    A MEMORY SURFACED-

    In the past, I never felt like I had any personal contact with off-world entities. However, shortly after I asked for more information, I started to remember a past situation that occurred. I used to think our house was haunted because occasionally I would feel the presence of energies. At times, it felt like something, or someone, was near me. Out of the blue, I suddenly remembered a time when I was really sick and was sleeping on the couch (so I wouldn't disturb my wife's sleep).

    As I was lying there in the dark, it felt as if there were two legs standing next to the couch and something was looking down at me. At the time, I assumed it was a spirit, ghost, etc.

    MEDITATION-

    After this memory flooded into my mind, I decided to go and meditate. In meditation, I scanned the scene from an Observer's viewpoint. I went into a deep meditative state and placed myself (i.e. my consciousness) in the middle of the room floating above the scene. I saw my body lying on the couch. Then, I saw this rather tall figure in a black cape and black hat standing next to my body looking down at me. I couldn't really see his(?) face because the cape covered his head (similar to a monk’s full-bodied robe).

    However, from what happened next, I saw that he had two large, round, circular, glowing red eyes. I couldn’t see his face because it remained shadowed by the cape. This is the weird thing - As I was looking at him from behind him, he turned his head around and looked at me. So, here I am looking at him in meditation and he knows I'm looking at him because he turns his head completely around to look at me (while I’m looking at him).

    Some of the feelings about him that came through to me were the following: This being is extremely intelligent. He does not exude much emotion. Although he doesn't exude a feeling of love, he doesn't have a negative or malevolent presence. He has a feeling of being very logical and extremely advanced. It's quite interesting because I also got the feeling that he was there to assist or help me in some way. Perhaps he was checking on the illness for some reason. Even more strangely, I feel a deep connection with this being.

    [Post Cont.]

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 30, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,
    Bizarre, truly! I don’t know how to respond.

    Have you moved since seeing the craft? The reason I ask is if you haven’t moved there may be something in that area attracting the orbs.

    I live near a factory with a lot of electrical equipment and there have been several reports of balls of light, as you describe, appearing in the area. A neighbor worked as a watchman in the large parking lot and was freaked out by the balls of lights circling the little watch station where he sat. Neighbors have speculated that the activity has something to do with the electrical equipment in the factory, but who knows?

    Someone once said that the world is not only stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine.

    Hearing a story such as yours motivates me to reveal something that I have never told anyone.

    About twenty years ago I was doing a lot of writing; it was pretty far out stuff that I never tried to publish. This was during the period when I was in contact with two prominent figures in the UFO community.

    For a couple of months I believed that what I was writing was being communicated to me by something that I considered may be another form of intelligence. Since I was involved with a lot of UFO info at the time I considered, [dare I be so bold to say] that is was related to our visitors from another dimension.

    That’s about as weird as I get. Don’t bother to ask for a sample, I thru it all away in an effort to preserve the image of a rational inhabitant of this strange planet.

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 30, 2012


    The post script to it all is that I have had other, long-term experiences that I would put into this category of visitations. I am visited by white balls of light about twice the diameter of a basketball. I am relieved to report that they do not come inside the house! I am reluctant to write about this stuff because I don't understand it. I surely do not know what it means, but it has been proof to me that subtle beings are here with us. They have been connected to my life, since childhood. I don't see beings, though...just bright balls of light. Still, I think the 1992 experience was about the potatoes...probably.

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 30, 2012

    Part II of the experience...
    The next day, my elderly upstairs neighbor was in an agitated state from seeing the thing. She had lived in the building 40 years, was very religious, and decided it was a sign from God that did not bode well. It had upset her greatly~~to my relief (!) because someone else saw the darned thing!!!

    I did not receive any telepathic messages. I do think that the craft was there studying the potatoes kept in the warehouse next door. Tons (literally) of whole potatoes were stored there, owned by a restaurant a few blocks away, that sold fries in huge portions. Did they think I was growing all those potatoes in our tiny backyard garden?

    The hour of missing time is daunting. There were also other times when I felt like the light was around. Oddly, my neighbor also had these "inklings" simultaneously, though neither of us saw it again.
    Prior to my seeing the light, the first time, two other neighbors reported seeing "little people" in the building. One of these residents drank copious amounts of vodka, and the other had schizophrenia, and was on & off her meds, so I did not take their reports to heart. They were both long gone by the time this occurred. The experience made me take their stories to heart.

    Also, I verified with the building/warehouse super that no one visited and no light existed in the warehouse that would have produced what we saw.

    There is one other thing that happened that is so absurd I can barely bring myself to write it here, but one of the proprietors of the restaurant, unaware of this whole story, confided in me, about 4 months later, that she believed she had witnessed other life forms come into the restaurant and sample/study the fries. I thought she was pulling my leg, but it turned out that the super never told her about the light I had reported to him.
    Okay, it makes me laugh because of the absurdity factor of the last detail... but there it is...

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 30, 2012

    I will post this in two parts. The buffer only allows a certain number of characters...

    Okay, it's all weirder than owl scat...

    I was in an urban environment, in 1992. The first time the light showed up, in January, it woke me from a sound sleep. It was perfectly silent, but my room was normally very dark at night. This light flooded the room brighter than daylight. My boyfriend was lying in bed, eyes wide open, staring at the light, but would not respond when I kept asking him, "What is that???" His non-response freaked me out as much as the light, so I dove under the covers and tried to go back to sleep, too afraid to get out of bed. The next morning, my boyfriend did NOT recall any of it.

    In October, it came back. This time, I did think a transformer had blown, since one had blown about 3 weeks earlier, and my neighbor described it as a firework display. This time, I was just getting in bed, and had just shut off the light, when the my room filled with the bright light. This time, I was curious, so I got out of bed and walked to the window. The light felt warm where it filtered in between the curtains. By the time I opened the curtain, the light was no longer shining in my window. I could see a small craft. It was about 3.5 feet in diameter, shaped like an Oreo, with a dome on top and bottom, and small amber lights encircling the middle. The bright light emanated from the bottom in one huge beam. The craft was ascending from the roof of the warehouse, next door, and was about 12 feet away initially, slowly rising. .

    At that time, the beam was moving away from my window, shining on the wall of the adjacent warehouse, towards the backyard garden, then, on the warehouse wall where it wrapped around the garden like an L shape. The beam began to contract back into the craft. When it was vertical beneath the craft, the beam did not actually go all the way down, but looked like it had been cut at the bottom and was getting shorter, retracting into the craft. As soon as the light was completely retracted, the entire craft disappeared. It had not made any noise, whatsoever.

    I woke may neighbor, discovered an hour had been lost, and asked if he had seen anything. He had seen lights shining in his window about 1/2 hour earlier but was too tired to get out of bed to see what they were. They were also coming from the warehouse roof.

    We went outside. No one seemed to be reacting to anything unusual. He climbed on the warehouse roof, but found nothing odd. I slept on the floor of his room that night, too freaked out to stay alone.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 30, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    I would really like to hear about what it was like to be within 12 feet of a UFO, that must have been mind boggling. In my experience they were about 3 hundred feet above the lake and they were huge.

    There was single engine prop plane following them, a safe distance away, and it would take about 4 of those small single engine planes, placed wing tip to wing tip to cross the diameter of one of the discs. I was fortunate to be with my family and possibly around 300 others around the lake and that somewhat preserved my sanity. I haven’t talked about this for years.

    I have also read that the UFO experiences are more prevalent among Native Americans, particularly those living on reservations. I have considered that this may be due to being in remote locations, somewhat removed from the mental energy influences of the consensus reality, but that’s pure speculation.

    Please tell me more about being within 12 feet of UFO. That could be considered a close encounter. How big was it, what was its shape, did you experience what could be referred to as a telepathic connection? Were you alone or with others?

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 30, 2012


    It's true that we are an aggressive society. Sky people have met with violence, here, in the past (see Vallee's Wonders of the Skies). This could quell the desire to overtly interact with us. That makes complete sense.

    My close proximity UFO experience exasperated me more than anything. I did not report it when it happened, and spent the next few months scrutinizing any and all air traffic in my neighborhood, which housed 3 major hospitals that all had rooftop heliports. It did push out the boundaries of my sense of reality. It is also one of those things that could only serve to drive me crazy if I spent too much time dwelling on it, since I could find no answers.

    One struggle I had about fitting it into reality was how it fit into my personal daily reality. I was in grad school at the time, working on my doctorate at a large, urban university Back East. I felt this HUGE SPLIT between my daily life and my mental wanderings, trying to read and find any info on what I had seen, while trying not to get obsessed about it. Some of my friends had had their own sorts of experiences, so there were people with whom I could discuss it, but I did not speak of it at work/school for fear of being considered nuts and therefore, an unreliable researcher/professional. So, trying to absorb the experience and equilibriate it was painful, to some degree, because it did force me to recalibrate the boundaries of reality and try to live with acceptance that my new sensibilities were very different than those governing the world in which I was operating.

    Recently, I read that UFO interactions are higher among people of Native American descent. I am Cajun, Irish, Dutch and Micmac First Nations People of Canada. The Micmac's origins are genetically thought to be Egyptian, Phoenician, and/or Greek. Their writing is Egyptian hieroglyphics. Is this the tie in? The Ancient Aliens theorists would seize that link, but I like rational proof and no little gray telepaths have sent me hieroglyphic postcards to verify this.

    Anyway, it is one of our GREAT MYSTERIES. I hope we get more answers to it. The puzzle pieces, thus far, are fascinating.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 30, 2012

    Hi slowlygetnthar,

    As far as the subtle beings not wanting a more overt contact; it could be similar to us not desiring contact with people who are aggressive or disagreeable. There does seem to be some among us that have more contact with them than others. From what I have observed these individuals are open and passive i.e. not the type that would be receptive to war or aggressiveness.

    As far as UFO’s and paradigm shifts, the best theory I’ve heard was that of Terrance McKenna, an explorer of altered states and shamanism. His take was that the purpose of UFO’s is to open us up to paradigm shifts. Stated another way, when we have a sighting, we tend to see the consensus reality as flawed or incomplete. This can cause us to explore for more fulfilling experiences, such as going inward to search for truth, rather than granting authority to the 7 o’clock news.

    After my experience with UFO’s, I went from an A student to simply getting by. I saw what was being taught in school as superficial and limited. That’s about the time I began to explore the mystical or esoteric literature. So in a sense the UFO’s put me on a path that now seems much more rewarding. Perhaps the subtle beings and UFO’s serve a similar purpose.

    Putting all this within the context of “mystery”; another good piece of advice came from Krishnamurti; he said “It is good to love the unknown”. Another way of saying it would be “learn to appreciate or love mystery”…….Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 29, 2012


    Hi Jim, I completely concur with you. All the government conspiracy buzz really does make it seem as if the government has any control. Maybe the government put that out there to quell hysteria, like what arose over War of the Worlds, OR to scare people into silence.

    I do believe these subtle beings have been here with us for eons, or perhaps, are our origins. I have witnessed one UFO from about 12 feet away, and have seen several other strange sky objects, so know that something is here with us, but I don't have any more answers than anyone else. Vallee's excellent work, and Evans-Wentz's book have convinced me that whatever is here with us does not want contact that we process on a conscious & physical level, for the most part. I do not understand why this is so.

    Over time, I have come to deeply respect Whitley Streiber for being so open/vulnerable and public about his struggle to understand his experiences. Initially, I thought he was a kook. Now, I see him as a brave soul. He truly initiated a dialogue about UFO's that has brought a great deal of info to light.

    The dialogue about UFO's seems to be stuck and also in need of a paradigm shift. Can this happen when no one seems to know what is going on?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 23, 2012

    Slowlygetnthar,

    I must learn to be clearer in my comments.

    It was not my intention to communicate that all UFO information is disinformation. My interest in UFOs was due to my family and I viewing three large silver discs moving slowly across a clear blue sky over a lake while picnicking when I was around 12 years old.

    The disinformation relates to UFO crashes in which parts of the crafts are stored away for examination. I believe the intention of such disinformation is to have the public believe that the Government has some control over the situation……Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 22, 2012

    slowlygetnthar,

    I am also a fan of Jacques Vallee and believe that he may be the most credible source among the many UFO researches with his ideas of multidimensional realities.

    I was a UFO researcher for several years back in the 80’s. My intention was not to investigate sightings, but to get to know the investigators and attempt to learn something from the inside.

    Eventually, what I learned is that there is a network of disinformation specialists whose influence is deep and wide. Their influence has spread to what is now recent TV specials related to UFO crashes and recovered bodies. IMO, its all disinformation. Jacques Vallee is one of the very few sources that I consider worth exploring.

    I can also identify with your comment in another topic related to information overload and our ability to accept only a limited number of realities without going insane. Perhaps this is why there is little interest in my topic A Second Try.

    I avoided getting into how formulating this topic has provided an occasional experience of a deep and rewarding sense of peace. For me, this functions as an inoculation against information overload. I intended to wait until there was a sincere interest in the topic and that may have been a mistake. Of course, what works for one may be simply more information overload for another.

    It’s been nice to make contact once again……Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 12, 2012


    Giorgio, I absolutely love the philosophy and approach that you are suggesting here, and would hope that we humans will choose such a manner to proceed in interacting with subtle beings.

    A few things come to mind as I read your entry, though:

    1.) These past two decades, I have spent a good deal of time reading and re-reading Jacques Vallee's book DIMENSIONS, most recently last Christmas 2011. In addition to documenting a long, historical tradition of human and subtle being interaction, he also clearly draws parallels to Celtic faerie faith and modern alien encounters. He often refers to Evans-Wentz's study on faerie faith, in his analysis. What can be seen from what he describes is that the subtle beings may not want overt contact with us. In ancient times, according to Ancient Alien theorists, there was more in the way of interaction and also, civilizations received overt guidance from "them." It seems that that guidance is more on a intuitive level, now.

    2.) Much of Western culture views interaction with subtle being as hostile. The proliferation in the media of subtle beings conducting scary medical probing and fetuses implanted, then, taken from human wombs has resulted in fear. The government denial and threatening Men in Black episodes have laid down a whole other couple of layers of different types of fear as well. All of this fear inhibits honest examination of what people are actually experiencing and/or the development of honest scientific inquiry into this field. It inhibits the kind of open-minded attempts at open diplomacy with subtle beings you are suggesting. Also, reading the faerie stories in Evans-Wentz's field study in the British Isles, I am not certain that some of our fear of some of the subtle beings is not justified. So, some caution is necessary, which also seems to be the reason that shamans have often acted as intermediaries/guides/interpreters/gate-keepers/guards between the worlds.

    3.) Acceptance of subtle beings is on the rise, but mostly, folks talk about them as "aliens" instead of seeing them as having inhabited this planet with us since the beginning our presence here. Talking openly about their influences in our lives is a good way to be relegated to realm of lunatics. For some reason, Judeo-Christian society can accept angels and ghosts, but not these other beings.

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