Posted March 27, 2012 by slowlygetnthar in Open

commented on April 12, 2012
by slowlygetnthar



How do we overcome the illusion of separateness
from each other
from "other countries"
from the universe?

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 12, 2012

    Start some threads with those questions. They are great and will get folks thinking!

  • DyckDyck Apr 11, 2012

    Is there a willingness to live fully, to being dispassionate, open and relentless to finding truth?

    May I suggest you modify your question to be more fundamental to start with? Here's a few things to chew on.

    How do you know there is such a thing... ("the illusion of separateness") that separateness is an illusion? Or, that unity is reality?
    And what about "illusion"? In your life, how does one detect illusion? Or, perhaps you are illusion... you are right now in a dream state of unconsciousness... how could we come to know this?

  • KYRANI Apr 10, 2012

    For the mix up "no worries mate!" as we say in Australia.

    Thank you for the affirmation of my going to live in Greece becoming a reality. In Greek we say may it be from your lips to God's ear! Thanks.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 10, 2012


    There is a custom in my part of the country to say goodbye for now with a little zinger.....a bit of humor. Generally, it is done with a smile or chuckle I should have realized that it would not be taken in the spirit intended when in print. The last name I used was that of the Italian family that lives next door. I have always believe that Plotinus was Greek. Sorry for the mix-up......Jim

  • moretocome Apr 10, 2012

    Hi Kyrani,

    Although our perspectives are quite divergent, I have gained a greater understanding of your own perspective from your posts. Thank you for sharing the details of your experience. I found your story to be quite interesting.

    I wish you all the best and hope your desire to live in Greece becomes a reality.

    Blessings to you. :-)

  • KYRANI Apr 10, 2012

    The surname does have a Greek ring to it but it could also be Latin but that doesn't mean he was Roman. There is some doubt. However he was born and lived the first part of his life in Hellenized Egypt and in particular in Alexandria. He lived for a time in Rome but then lived in Campania, which is a province that was collonized by the Ancient Greeks. His work is written in Greek, his teachers were all Greeks and was a philosopher and had a respect for religion and an understanding of "more than the physical" all of which preclude him being Roman. The Greeks were philosophers and religious people, the Roman were savages. They engaged in killings by the hundreds and thousands for daily entertainment, of both animals and humans. And you have only to see the absolute bastardization of the Gods of Mt Olympus when they took them to make them their own. Dionysius is most vivid example. He was the God of the Wine, meaning Bliss. They renamed him Bacchus and performed orgies and drunk themselves silly in his "honor". And I strongly suspect they did the same to Christianity and then sold it back to the Greeks, whom they had colonized at that time, under a semi-respectable banner. The Romans certainly can be recognized for their contribution to Law though.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 09, 2012


    I read somewhere where his full name was Plotinus Laquasto, so I don’t think the Greeks can really take full credit for his writing, but we’ll save that for another thread…Later….Jim

  • KYRANI Apr 09, 2012

    Thanks for the quote, I don't know if you realize it but you are quoting me one of my tribe, a Greek.

    As for discussion I agree with you we have reached an impasse and as I also like to discuss subjects with you, let's leave it for another thread, and other subject.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 09, 2012


    I am aware that we are spiritual beings and that our essence is not within the illusory nature of material reality.

    You are firm in idea that life is a struggle and that we must struggle to evolve; I simply cannot accept that idea. I will not take the position that one of us is right and the other is wrong; I will take the position that we have chosen or been conditioned to follow different paths.

    I enjoy dialogue with you, but when an impasse is reached due to our different paths, I see little value in continuing dialogue, unless it is within a different topic.

    Since you have provided a quote, I have one that is worthy of consideration. I am not in the state described in the quote below, but for me it contains a truth which does not reflect the necessity to struggle or hold reason in high esteem.

    “You ask ‘How can I know the infinite? I answer, not by reason.’ It is the office of reason to distinguish and define. The infinite, therefore, cannot be ranked among its objects. You can only apprehend the infinite by a faculty superior to reason, by entering into a state in which you are your finite self no longer, in which the Divine Essence is communicated to you. This is Ecstasy. It is the liberation of your mind from its finite consciousness.” Plotinus (205 –270 AD)

  • KYRANI Apr 09, 2012

    We do not exist in an illusion, Jim. The material existence is made of mind stuff and is illusory in that it is not the solid matter that our senses perceive. However the "we" as in spiritual beings are still there somewhere, no not in the material world, though experiencing it. We exist as spiritual being having human experiences and not for nothing. There is purpose. Our existence is meaningful. You have arrived at a "rational perspective" only because you have seen this world as not being of what it looks to be. However it is not rational to "not to engage in a constant struggle" because it is not "against aspects of the illusion". This life is a struggle. We are in a place of learning and all learning is struggle to some extent, some more than others. Indeed in Greek the word for education and learning means to stuggle and to suffer. It seems to me you are trying to gain control over the mind in order to gain peace of mind and that is not possible.To do what you are suggesting you have to blot out your conscience, blunt your awareness and even then what is controlling, who controls.. you end up with an ego self getting strengthened instead of fading away.

    Live as a vulnerable being, but not as a stupid one; vulnerable.. take a chance where you want to but at the same time be aware and on guard against deception and trickery. When we accept our vulnerabilities, our "humanness" ironically enough we have the greatest avenue open up for us to spiritual awakening. Let go of control and connect with others, feel their pain, enjoy their happiness. These will bring peace of mind.

    Let me quote you from the Tao Te Ching (This is a good book to own and browse its pages now and then).
    Bk1 #4
    The Way is empty, yet use will not drain it,
    Deep, it is like the ancestor of the myriad creatures,
    Blunt the sharpness,
    Untangle the knots,
    Soften the glare,
    Let your wheels move only along old ruts.
    Darkly visible, it only seems as if it were there,
    I know not whose son it is.
    It images the forefather of God.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 09, 2012

    @ Kyrani,

    I do not treat justice with contempt and I never alluded to the notion that I was enlightened.

    Because I see the material world as illusion, I simply do not take events in the material world as seriously as you reflect in your comments.

    It seems to me that when we are aware that we exist in an illusion, the rational perspective is to not to engage in a constant struggle against aspects of the illusion, but to maintain what we have some semblance of control over and that is our peace of mind.

  • KYRANI Apr 09, 2012

    A correction. I wrote "You don't seem to comprehend that because the physical is of an illusory nature, does not in any way the seriousness of our actions." and I had lost some words. It should read.. "You don't seem to comprehend that because the physical is of an illusory nature, does not in any way diminish the seriousness of our actions.

  • KYRANI Apr 09, 2012

    @ Jim
    There were some serious issues that you do not want to acknowledge. What of all the trivial? Discussion involves concepts and all the things that you seem to have a problem with. It is the seriousness of what you were putting forth that I was trying to address and not whether you used "I" in a sentence or tried to avoid it awkwardly. You don't seem to comprehend that because the physical is of an illusory nature, does not in any way the seriousness of our actions. We can't treat Justice with contempt and then say enlightened. That is an outrage.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 08, 2012


    What words would have been appropriate to communicate “an experience consumed awareness”? Should I have said “I had an experience” or “I entered into an experience”? What words would have been appropriate without referring to the concept “I”, which we both agree is an illusory mental fabrication.

    In order to justify that the material world is illusion, I referred to several systems of thought which support that perception. According to your analysis, I could have simply said that I experienced direct knowing and that was the only comment that was necessary; not very practical.

    As far as the movie analogy, you say “If all you can say is interesting movie then you got nothing, you are nothing.. less.” Is this the experience of no self which you are fond of advocating?

    I have previously entered into discussions such as this which resulted in taking each other’s words or phrases and critiquing them endlessly; which accomplished nothing except exhibiting our prowess at concept manipulation and satisfying a need of the ego self.

    After exhausting exchanges we experienced the realization that we were in an amusement park; The Amusement Park of Conceptual Thought. We had a laugh and ended that particular dialogue.

    Kyrani, should we continue this dialogue of critiquing each other’s words or can we experience that realization in the beginning? If we are voting, I tentatively choose to experience the realization in the beginning……Jim

  • KYRANI Apr 08, 2012

    moretocome cont.
    The next instructions were “cross the road, turn around”. I crossed the road, turned around. Then “Cross the road” I said “I just crossed the road”. “Cross again.. diagonally” I began.. diagonally & at the middle of the road the instruction was “stop”. I stopped and stood there with cars going this way & that. After half a minute I said “now what”? The instruction was “stay there”. I stood there gasping for air, feeling stupid. After another half minute the guy from the flat downstairs came running out. “What’s the matter.. never seen you like this.. come inside”. We went into the flat downstairs. He said to his wife make some sweet tea. She went to her kitchen & put the kettle on and then came running back. She said she could see from her kitchen to my back stairs that there were three people there knocking on the door. This made me panic but I assured her they were not there for me. The woman had gone out several times and saw them look around several times, go up the front steps and around my car. Finally they must have seen her as a snoopy neighbor, maybe made them nervous and they couldn’t find me anyway and they left. She got my tea and the husband said sit over here, this is where I was sitting, it’s a nice spot. I sat there, took the tea in my hands and looked up. I was shocked for what I saw. They had a very large picture window. Outside it was full of shrubs and trees. There was only one spot outside that could be seen and that was exactly the spot where I had been instructed to stand in the middle of the road!

    Years later the man who came to my flat that day admitted he had left the door looking closed and the people who came, he further admitted came to murder me. I had been saved with just one minute to spare! Who instructed me? What power helped me?

    This is one dramatic example but I can give you lots more. There is a power, an intelligence.. something that helps me, that nurtures me, protects me, that is quite literally “driving me” like I was a car. I can assure you there is not ego self that can do this work that is being done through me.. this body-mind. My sense of ego self is unimportant, does not desire to fight. I desire to live in Greece, so to the theatre, take my dogs for walks and make some good friends. I desire to live in peace like anybody else.

    We cannot justify inaction. There is injustice in the world.. gross injustice and we can’t look upon other people with indifference, with apathy or say hey, it’s just an interesting movie. That sucks. I suppose you could say we must tend the garden. If you do nothing the weeds and the creepers will cover and kill everything beautiful. You have to take out the secateurs and prune.. illusion or no illusion. And yet I, of myself do nothing. The temple lights are lit, the sweet bread is on the altar and the incense is burning.. and yet the temple is empty. Vastness is everywhere. Who is there? Who fights? Who loves so deeply? Who is the puppeteer?

  • KYRANI Apr 08, 2012

    moretocome cont.
    One day in 1987 I had the flu and decided to work from home. A man I knew came to my flat. He wanted to see the views from the back door, we had some tea, we chatted and then he left. Shortly after he left I had a strong feeling to go check the back door. I resisted it. Immediately it came back with force. I went and stood at the kitchen door from which I got a good view of the back door, saw it was locked and ticked it off. The feeling prompted me again. I objected and argued with it. The door’s locked, I can see the bolt up top. I went to turn away and I was quite literally pushed. “Check the back door” shouted in my head. I was taken aback because there was no one around and I was pushed. I nearly fell over. I went to the back door and put my hand on the handle and pulled it towards me, certain it was securely locked and to my utter shock a little piece of paper fell and the bolt fell. It had been secured in place so that it looked locked. Anyone from outside could have opened it with the tiniest push. I bolted the door and went back into the lounge shaken.

    I recovered but then in another 15mins I started to get what was like an asthma attack. I couldn’t breathe. I then had what some might call a near death experience. I saw a brilliant horizon, a wall of white light stretching infinitely in all directions and I felt immense love.. a totally engrossing experience. I began to move towards it and then I felt that I had arrived at some point and stood there as a mental voice said “you have reached the point of no return, you can step over it and come back to us, and it’s okay. I thought for a second and I said, “I have come here to do something, there’s something I’ve got to do” I had no clue at that time what that something was. As soon as I had made a choice to stay I felt I was drawn back from the brilliant light and then I came back to consciousness and I found I was on the couch with serious breathing problems.

    From there I followed instructions quite literally. What I can only call an instruction in my mind said “get out of the flat”. I said “I don’t know where my keys are” because I thought I was safe in the flat and didn’t want to go out. The instruction said “your keys are under a file on your dresser”. I went to my bedroom saw the dresser and the file. I moved the file and to my surprise there were my keys. I took the keys and the instruction then was again “get out of the flat”. I went to the front door opened it and the instruction was “close the door.. make sure it’s locked”. I did so. I had severe difficulty breathing but I started down the stairs.

  • KYRANI Apr 08, 2012

    Hi moretocome
    Firstly let’s get the record straight. Yes, I do have an enormous amount of evidence that I have entered this incarnation (and many before it in preparation) to "do a job” and that job is to expose evil. BUT I have not taken up a sword so to speak and gone after people to fight for Justice. I haven’t attacked anyone. I have been attacked and am under attack now for more than a decade. And you want to call that “I” the ego self, the body, the soul whatever, it doesn’t matter.. I am under siege. And I am not talking just a few people in the local area, where they are calling my property “the island” because I am totally surrounded. There are many, many people fighting me and many of them are in powerful positions. It is not that I am up against the government and its instrumentalities but toxic people within the government and its instrumentalities and of course toxic people in the medical industry. They have everything to lose because the truth about disease is self-evident.. solid. To do nothing is not an option. Even if my life means nothing to you or anyone else, it matters naught. I have a right and a duty to fight for this life and do the work that has been put on my plate. It is futile to say “oh it’s all illusion so let them kill me that’s okay”. That, to me, is garbage.

    Secondly. Your argument about anger is Illogical. Anger is an energizing of the body. This powering up is not arbitrary. The body does not act arbitrarily. It powers up to act, to address the issue of injustice at hand, the violation whatever it is.

    Powerlessness can arise for many different reasons. Certainly when a person is frustrated and needs to act and sees no open roads they may feel powerless but again they are not frustrated for nothing. I can see millions dying in a war in Africa for instance and I feel powerless to help them but that does not make me angry. It moves me with compassion. I want to help them but I am unable to do anything material. I can however act in a spiritual way, to put forth directives to the universe to aid them, which I do. That is my part. Where’s the anger?

    You can’t feel victimized unless you ARE victimized. A person who is violated is victimized. I have stood my ground and fought against an immense mob and continue to do so gaining strength each time. I could not possibly have done the work that I have done thus far and continue to do if I were powerless, nor if I were victimized. Each attack they make opens a door for me, it is an opportunity for greater spiritual awakening.. where is there powerlessness? I am blessed.

    You said: “I will fight the ‘evil’ ones because I refuse to be VIOLATED by them”. I can see how someone might think this but this IS NOT MY EXPERIENCE. I do not desire to do battle with evil or anyone else. I desire to be living somewhere in peace. I am standing my ground though and very well AND NOT owing to my own efforts. Let me give you an example of what I mean here.

  • KYRANI Apr 08, 2012

    Jim, Jim I don’t know about differences but I sure don’t understand you.

    1. “an experience consumed awareness” what????? Double Dutch!

    2. direct knowing that the physical world [material world] is an illusion, a mirage. I agree.. absolutely. The physical world is mind-made and as a result an illusion. BUT the physical world is not all that there is.. there is also Reality, the Transcendental Reality behind the appearances, behind the illusion! That is direct knowing!

    3. If there was “direct knowing” what in the hell do you want to justify it with anything else.. religions, mystic, quantum physics.. these are no justification.. pooh. Direct knowing is clean. The knowing that is beyond even the tiniest hint of doubt. Suchness, Thatness is NOT illusion. That is direct knowing! Full Awareness only means you’ve found the road, you’ve got to find the place, knock at the front door, go inside!

    4. Let’s see if I read you correctly. And let’s put some values in those variables. “evil people causing harm (mobs torturing single individuals to death), violence (some guy raping a two year old), people being unable to forgive (a mother or father who’s son or daughter was murdered yesterday) or that humanity is headed for extinction (you can take your pick overpopulation of the planet, gross pollution, global warming, economic catastrophe, disease spreading to engulf everyone from birth to death, ie whole lifetime, third world war maybe). My response is “interesting movie”. If all you can say is interesting movie then you got nothing, you are nothing.. less. Only an evil person can see harm and get a kick off of it. Ah but it’s all an illusion you say.

    5. What is behind the illusion? Let me give you an illustration that is the other way around but it makes a point. In a Fellini movie I once saw (can’t recall its name) there was a procession of Catholics priests, bishops and altar boys taking their icons and symbols through the streets on tall wooden staffs. The camera focuses on one icon, I don’t remember what it was, maybe the “Holy Mary” and you get to see the aspect and the glitter, the gold and diamonds etc., etc., and as the procession moves past the camera you get to see behind the icon. Behind the icon is strings and tape holding it all together and stuff hanging from it and so on, junk. He was trying to say religion is all “front” and behind it there’s nothing substantial. The point I am making is that there is a front, appearance but there is something behind the appearances. Yeah, reality is illusion but that isn’t it. Reality is behind reality. The Truth is behind the appearances. The mirror has a backing.

    6. You need an immediate correction alright -the movies is not where it’s at.

    7. conceptual constructions, our experiences of the material world and alternative worldviews.. man these are all for the fairies.

  • moretocome Apr 07, 2012

    Hi Kyrani,

    You mentioned that “Normal, healthy, non-toxic people do not get angry for nothing. They only get angry when they are VIOLATED and when they see injustice and that anger varies according to the injustice.”

    From my perspective, ANGER originates out of a sense of POWERLESSNESS. And, powerlessness leads to the feeling of VICTIMIZATION (i.e. feeling ‘VIOLATED’). The desire to battle “evil” comes from a sense of victimization (i.e. I will fight the ‘evil’ ones because I refuse to be VIOLATED by them).

    Kyrani, based on the wording in your posts, you’ve clearly had the experience/realization of no-self. You’ve seen the illusion of ‘self’ (or, in other terms, you’ve seen the falsity of the mental construct of “I”). So, WHO IS IT that feels the necessity to ‘fight for justice’?

    Does the desire to ‘fight evil’ come from the EGO-SELF or does it come from pure AWARENESS/CONSCIOUSNESS?

    Does the feeling of being ‘violated’ come from the EGO-SELF or does it come from pure AWARENESS/CONSCIOUSNESS?

    From ‘my’ realization of no-self, AWARENESS/CONSCIOUSNESS has no desire to ‘fight’ against anything. Nor does IT feel ‘violated’ by anyone or anything. Therefore, the desire to ‘fight’ anything (or feel ‘violated’) must derive from the EGO-SELF.

    The ego-self is adept at hiding from your view. The ego-self will JUSTIFY ITS CAUSE in a myriad of ways (in order to keep from being seen). However, the fact remains that it is the EGO-SELF that is engaging the battle, not AWARENESS/CONSCIOUSNESS.

    Of course, it is always your CHOICE whether you wish to continue your battle or surrender it (in order to live in a state of Joy, Love, and Peace). Whatever your decision, I completely honor and respect it.

    Please realize, I’m not implying that I’m immune from the ego-self. In fact, the only reason I see it so clearly in ‘you’ is because I’ve seen it in ‘myself’ (and continue to). From ‘my’ experience, true FREEDOM and Peace comes from the identification and transcension of the ego-self.

    Kyrani, if you really look, you’ll realize the EGO-SELF is fueling the battle you wage against ‘evil’. As such, one cannot possibly embody a perpetual STATE of Peace and Joy when the ego-self is engaged in a ‘fight’ (because the ego-self is the antithesis of Peace, Joy, and FREEDOM).

    As always, Love and Peace to you. Scott

    [Note: Needless to say, this post comes from ‘my’ perspective and it’s not meant to imply that it is ‘Truth’ for you.]

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 07, 2012


    We have different views relative to the nature of reality and this is the cause of our disagreement.

    It’s not my intention to alter your worldview, but if you are acutely aware of my worldview, perhaps you will understand the nature of our disagreement. I have previously expressed my views relative to the nature of reality, but it seems that I may not have been clear. I will try to be clearer.

    About forty years ago an experience consumed awareness which caused a magnificently beautiful experience of awe and also, direct knowing that the physical world [material world] is an illusion, a mirage.

    There is confirmation that the material world is illusion in Buddhism, Hinduism, Theosophy, Christian and Jewish mysticism, Sufism, the mystical branch of Islam and the writings of many mystics that are not affiliated with any tradition.

    Within the past few years, I have learned that Quantum Physics proclaims that the material world is illusion, so I am pretty firmly fixed in the position that the material world is illusion.

    In the effort to be clearer, the analogy of a movie theater will be used. To me, acknowledging events in the world is like observing a movie. When I hear that there are evil people causing harm, violence, people being unable to forgive or that humanity is headed for extinction. My response is “interesting movie”.

    Occasionally, very infrequently and for short periods within the illusion of time, I notice that I have become over involved with a particular movie; when this is realized, an immediate correction is made.

    Can you accept that our conceptual constructions of the world, our experiences of the material world, are profoundly divergent? Is there any value in serious contemplation of the value of an alternative worldview?

  • KYRANI Apr 07, 2012

    @ parker
    YES! I agree with you. I would have said it a bit differently but in essence I am in agreement 100%
    I also agree that remote viewing is an aspect that can shed light on the subject. Good on you!

  • parker Apr 07, 2012

    We are expressed as separate entities - we are individual expressions of something, therefore there is no illusion to get over. We need to get over the mythical concept that we are all one. We are all of the One, but we are not that One. Each of us is a unique expression of that One, and each of us is connected one to another, both between each other and to that One, which is why we can commune with one another and with that One.

    Our inner self, that we all sense within us, is that aspect of our expression (our being) that enables communion with each other and with the knowledge that is of the One. Acceptance of these things enables a continuity of thought and expression that seems to inspire harmonious inter-connectivity and cooperation at many levels.

    I am going to start a new thread on Remote Viewing, which will hopefully help to clarify these things, at least to the degree I am able to share my comprehension of them.

  • KYRANI Apr 07, 2012

    @ Jim,
    firstly you know very well, if you have read what I've written, that I am not talking about a simple case of something happened in the past, wasn't nice, let's forgive the person and let's forget it. Yes that works although there are better ways to get rid of the anger or disturbing thoughts. But not always. I know people who have sincerely forgiven and were still violated by disturbing thoughts by a long time afterwards.

    secondly, forgiveness is not cost free! When a person does an injustice or a violation, including even trivial of deliberately hurting another person's feelings, they are doing a crime. It is not recognized in many cases in our legal system but nonetheless it is a crime. A simple crime incurs a debt in the mental/spiritual realm. A hate crime, as done by evil people incurs a triple debt, one to the victim, one to the society and one to the oneness because it does create changes in the mental realm, The Mind and hence to the collective. Forgiving such a debt pardons or foregoes the crime to the victim/ and that includes anyone affected by the victim's loss (eg if you kill or maim a mother with young children, the children are included).

    thirdly, it is one thing to forgive something, even evil that is a one off, but ongoing violence you need to deal with. The one and most effective way to deal with it is to use the debt. They put conditions in the mental realm that the victim can use against them to stop them from continuing to commit crimes against the victim, ie continuing to violate them. It is highway stupidity to allow yourself to be violated on an ongoing fashion by foregoing the debt. It is equivalent to being in the midst of battle and throwing down your weapons saying “oh I just forgive them.. costs nothing!” It will cost you your life.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 06, 2012


    No, I’m not saying peace at any cost. Forgiveness costs nothing, except a bit of momentary discomfort to the egocentric self prior to the forgiveness being granted. What I am talking about is peace of mind.

    Like most people, over many years I have experienced harm from others and there was a time when frequent thoughts of that harm disrupted my peace of mind.

    I have discovered that, within awareness, completely and totally forgiving those who harmed me caused those peace disturbing thoughts to end. In not even the most remote consideration does this represent selling my soul to the devil…..Jim

  • KYRANI Apr 06, 2012

    @ Jim,
    are you saying peace at any cost? And apart from selling your soul to the devil for peace, what sort of peace do you think it would be?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 06, 2012

    Kyrani and moretocome,

    I must be a spoil sport and step between you two and disrupt what promises to be an interesting exchange.

    If material reality is an illusion, as I attempted to point out to dustproduction, a few comments back, the only sensible course of action is to find some semblance of peace and serenity within this illusory matrix.

    If finding peace and serenity in this dammed illusion means simply forgiving the individuals who have offended me or even smooching their posterior, I say “bend over you bastards, you have my forgiveness”.

  • KYRANI Apr 06, 2012

    If I have no displeasure with the offenders I cannot stand against them and fight for justice. You are effectively saying the highest good is to love the evil people unconditionally, which means you cannot possibly feel any displeasure whatsoever and that will lead past duality! I don't think this is what it is about. The long and the short of it is if we do nothing we face extinction. Evil cannot sustain itself. They will only end up eating one another when there is no non evil people left. That is evident even now because even now they eat one another. I have seen it in at least five cases. And not that they had a grip with the guy who got eaten either. They just needed to get eaten because that is what the game called for at that particular time, that’s all. They killed them in other words because “it had to be” to put it in their language.

    Agapi is (Christian) spiritual love and comparable to other such words in other religions. This only means you can acknowledge a whole, a oneness that exists, not that you necessarily embrace its parts or any of its parts, as for instance in embracing evil or feel some affection for it.

    The love that is spoken of in religious literature has nothing to do with love as in the love of humans in their various relationships. In English the word love is a catch all for all of everything. So what do you mean by “unconditional love”. Do you mean that it doesn’t matter what they do, they can be the worst possible they are still acceptable.. embraced? This I am afraid only encourages evil. Evil people do not respond to love. If you think they are going to change if you love them unconditionally you are gravely mistaken.

  • KYRANI Apr 06, 2012

    We are living in times of immense hatred and atrocities done to millions daily and it is escalating by the day. We face extinction is the apathy goes on. Slowlygetnthar asked in another thread on the “science delusion thread” and I quote:

    I like your ideas, but I keep wondering, as I read what we are both saying here, is: how in the world are we going to get folks to put down the cheese burgers and remotes and give a fig about changing their thinking about health and well-being?~and thus, making moves to change systems that are supposed to care for them?

    I replied through another thread “Fear of the Paradigm Shift” because I thought it was also relevant there. And my answer was:
    @ slowlygetnthar from the Science Delusion thread I answer you here.

    If you suddenly realized that diets and lack of exercise, genes, toxins and old age are not the causes of stress and disease at all (and I talking cancer, diabetes, heart disease and strokes) but that rather it was how you could be manipulated as to inadvertently react.. somatically, and on top of that, that it was people you knew and trusted, friends, relatives, work associates etc., for the sake of power and influence, don’t tell me the remote would not fall out of your hands, and the cheese burger and even the bite you got in your mouth! And what does all that hang off.. oh my god it’s that horror of horrors.. ESP! In a single stroke the world changes. Instead of the clinical, carefully and scientifically pigeonholed catalog of diseases and the drugs to match of course, of course.. it’s all rocks and demons! ESP/psi is the lynch pin. It’s the lay public who’ll pull it and then the crumbling pillars of science comes tumbling down and things will never be the same again. It is not a case of if it will happen but when! 2012? Could be paradigm shift! We'll lose all the ills and the phony profits and good riddance too!

    Slowlygetnthar’s reply to me was a little correction, in parenthesis, inside of a reply to someone else. (By the way, Kyrani, I don't do cheeseburgers--am a vegetarian these past several decades.) This to me says that I consider what you have said and the issues you raise to be of the most trivial order. My being a vegetarian is a far more significant matter, the only matter serious enough to answer on! Maybe this for you is unconditional love for the offenders and I am the badie for pointing out the injustices.

  • KYRANI Apr 06, 2012

    @ moretocome
    Would you care to give me a definition of what you mean by forgiveness? As far as I am concerned the word means to allow someone who has done wrong to get away with it, to be pardoned, to let them off with it. And from what I have heard from most other this is also what they understand. If we go to the Oxford dictionary we find it defines forgiving as stop being angry or resentful towards someone for an offence. If this is what you mean then I can say I have no anger or resentment on the personal level. If I did I would have been eaten by the wolves long ago. I survive precisely because I do not act out of some personal self.

    This business of being angry has also many meanings. You might be annoyed, displeased or hostile, it is all put under the one label and on top of it called a negative emotion. Normal, healthy, non-toxic people do not get angry for nothing. They only get angry when they are violated and when they see injustice and that anger varies according to the injustice. In its truest sense anger is really about being opposed to injustice. If we didn't get angry with injustice we wouldn't be bothered working for a just society, we would see the offence and say "oh well that is life, just accept it as it is". This is really a “who cares!” attitude. And I have seen people who claim to be working for human rights and/or animal rights and they claim that they take distance from the injustices and harm that they see and that is why they are cool, calm and collected.. not a strand of hair out of place! BUT if you look at the work they do you can see its just a bit of masturbation.. they do nothing that will bring change. They simply put a bandage over the part that hurts for whoever it is and say hey you just got to forgive. Who are they and whom do they serve. If you feel nothing you cannot be moved to do the work.

  • moretocome Apr 06, 2012


    Thank you for your post. :-)


    From my perspective, our greatest challenge while here is to demonstrate FORGIVENESS and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE to everyone (no matter who they are or what they have done). It is perhaps the ultimate challenge we face. The challenge consists of expressing absolute FORGIVENESS and embodying UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

    When you completely FORGIVE someone (i.e. ex-husband, etc.), they may never even become aware of your forgiveness. However, through your INNER expression of forgiveness and Love, you bless YOURSELF with complete FREEDOM. True FREEDOM comes from WITHIN. This FREEDOM manifests through a perpetual state of Joy, Peace, Love, and Fulfillment in one’s life.

    You ask, "Can you love them and embrace them?"
    The answer is unequivocally and unconditionally 'YES'. There is no other way to gain COMPLETE FREEDOM (and true Joy, etc.).

    In my view, when you forgive EVERYONE and ALL “INJUSTICE” in the world, you have passed the ultimate challenge here on earth. When you love EVERYTHING and EVERYONE unconditionally, you have mastered the ILLUSION (i.e. duality).

    Kyrani, your words reveal that you haven't been able to forgive someone in your life. Perhaps, rather than doing it for them, do it to give yourself the true gift of FREEDOM. Regardless, Infinite Love & Peace to you.

    Bless you,


    "The 21st century will see the emergence of a new religion; namely, Unconditional Love."

  • KYRANI Apr 05, 2012

    @ DenisGorceBourge
    Love all you say.. mmmmmh can you love the devil. And let me qualify that the devil is not some mythical, otherworldly being. It is the collective of people who hate and hold apathy for others and who systematically in mobs prey upon single individuals, not once or twice, but more often than not for a lifetime. And not because that person (commonly a relative) has done them some harm, but for the sheer pleasure of doing harm and seeing the other person's suffering. Can you love them and embrace them? And make no mistake these people have no intention of ever changing. They are totally committed to hate and to doing harm. Would you connect with them.. love them?

  • DenisGorceBourge Apr 05, 2012

    Love is the best way in my opinion to overcome the illusion of separateness.
    The energy of love brings us closer to each other and to nature. It allows us to be gratefull and to come closer to the notion of being part of the same Universe.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 04, 2012


    In the event you wish to contact me via email, contact Michelle at mriddle@noetic.org she will provide you with my email address…..Jim

  • parker Apr 04, 2012

    We have been expressed as separate entities, of a common origin. This is not an illusion, it is the reality we exist as. Therefore resistance of this separateness that we are, is futile. Acceptance of it, because it is, is inevitable, and desirable, if we are to learn to behave beneficially as one group of beings.

    The unique characteristic of the human construct within the creation of all things, is that humans have been endowed with free will. Free will simply means we have a conscious mind that is capable of making limited free will decisions regarding the organization of this same energy, we are expressed of. We can of our own free will, organize our thoughts and express them for selfish gain, or for the collective benefit.

    The thought, as we give birth to it, becomes a very specifically organized pattern of original energy. Yet only when we express that thought, does the energy become a "thing" unto itself, and only as it is being expressed, does it have the power to influence other organizations of energy, such as our collective selves.

    The energy organized and embodied as each cell of the human construct contains sufficient knowledge to create the entire human being, including replicating that knowledge innumerable times. In incomprehensible amount of inter-communication between these cells enables this phenomenal harmonious capacity.

    These cells, capable of so very much harmonious activity are made obedient to our sub-conscious will. Science has established this - it is no great mystery. Concentrated thoughts can deliberately change the individual's cellular vibration, either positively, or negatively. When you lose the science long enough to think about it, you quickly realize that when you change the vibration of your cells by "thinking", it is because they are responding to the expression of your free will. You are communicating with them. Humans communicate, and everything humans do, originates in the knowledge contained in each little cell.

    To live and behave harmoniously then, simply requires we do more of that. Billions of our cells work harmoniously together and are capable of communing with us, yet it is our own lack of acceptance of this simple reality, that restricts us and instills fear within us, so that we hesitate to ask them (our inner self) what they yearn for us to know.

    Know thyself individually, and this is easy to do, for it is not far from you, then living harmoniously with others will become the collective reality.

  • KYRANI Apr 04, 2012

    I do not dispute that there is separateness, there is, but it is not something that is going to be simply overcome or overcome at all in the sense that if we do x then it's going to make it all go away. I see a fundamental separateness and for that reason I have argued as I have. However even in the most simplistic "level" or "perspective" to use Jim's words I do not see how there can be any resolution. We need to fight the oppressors and win against them. There are people in the world who have no agenda other than to sustain and maintain division. I see this this first hand but you can too when you appreciate how disease is brought into being. You will find that all areas whether social, medical, educational, religious etc., where people have begun groups and foundations and so on to help others, they have either got cancer or a heart attack or liver disease etc and within a few years or so they're dead. It is no coincidence. What is needed is for the humane people in the world to wake up and realize that a full on massacre is going on to the tune of millions killed every year worldwide and hundreds upon hundreds of others seriously affected. Only when you see that you have to realize it is not simply be overcome. We have to fight for freedom, democracy, human and animal rights and the survival of the planet itself otherwise it all goes down the gurgler.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 04, 2012


    I accept the premise that there is a significant illusion to be overcome, which includes separateness.

    My perspective is acquired from an experience which occurred many years ago, but remains fresh in memory. I have learned that describing the experience in detail provides no value for others so I will simply say that it provided an experience of reality that was profoundly more real the reality experienced while writing this and it lasted about three hours.

    Such experiences are more common than I originally believed. The notion of the material world as illusion is supported in Buddhism, Hinduism, Theosophy, the writings of many mystics and more recently in quantum physics, as revealed in the video referred to in “An Interesting Overview”.

    Considering the source of the illusion, as you suggest, will inevitably lead to a consideration of the nature of self, which is addressed in many venues and is somewhat alluded to in the second video in the topic referred to.

    I have serious doubts that a discussion of this illusion or its source will produce any concrete conclusions. My only interest participating in such a discussion is reflected in a recorded lecture by Abraham Maslow, where he indicates when his students began to discuss peak experiences they began having peak experiences.

    If you believe that such a discussion could be fruitful, the first order of business would be to decide if a new topic should be created for the discussion. I will follow your lead…..Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Apr 03, 2012

    Consider the question as it was posed, "How do we overcome the illusion of separateness, from each other, from "other countries, "from the universe?" First, does one accept the premiss of the question: Is there a separateness to overcome, be it an illusion or otherwise? If one accepts the premise, that there is separateness then its origin must be determined to further understand the question.
    If one cannot accept the premise there is not question to comment on. The only comment would be, "there is no separateness." End of sentence.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 03, 2012


    Your long absence from these discussions was missed and the reason for your absence appears justified when it is recognized that, a while back, some chose to discredit your words of insight simply due to their programming which dictates disagreement.

    Looking at disagreement from a base perspective, perhaps it could be somewhat diluted by an occasional experience of oral gratification from an attractive other.

  • KYRANI Apr 03, 2012

    You sound to me a bit idealistic.. to the point of no realism.
    “As above so below” means the same thing as “as in heaven so on earth” and what they mean is as is created in the mind so in the manifest reality. This is the mirror effect. I has nothing to do with separateness as such. Yes we walk between the two worlds but not as one conglomerate. Each soul is threaded like a bead on the thread of Reality. It is not a speck on a big bead! Through us all is the Divine but we are not all one substance made by the Divine or of the Divine.

    A lot of people quote the saint and sinner to say that we are all really alike. There are some psychiatrists saying hey these guys just made some wrong decisions. And there are other psychiatrists actually saying that psychopaths are useful in society, quoting the CEO that ruthlessly take a company to stardom, not of course looking at a real balance sheet, one that takes in society. It is not the saint and sinner but the good and the evil. And they are two different breeds, different in kind.

    Non-locality and collective unconscious are what we try to say about what we don’t understand. Don’t treat them as the reality because they are just our descriptions. I am baffled how you come to the conclusion from the collective unconscious and the non-locality to the Occupy Movement World Wide being “We Are All Related”. People affect one another but that does not make us related, at least not in the sense you are trying to say. If we were all related as in all one then there would be no Occupy Movement, not even in one country alone. There would be no need of it. The problem is created because we are not all related as in being all one. Do you really reckon the devils that parade amongst us, like angels in some cases, are somehow going to say “oh gosh I just didn’t realize it.. oh I’ll transform to a real angel!” I think that is nonsense. We need to fight for justice and to fight against corruption and expose all the ugliness and bring the truth to light otherwise we the same garbage.

    I do not have any compassion for evil people. They are garbage and need to be got rid of, just like you trash something rotten, and they can be simply by exposing them.

    I’m sorry but I completely disagree with the notion of we are all one and that there is some illusion of separateness. Why not elucidate on that shroud that you’re talking about? It is one thing to just make a statement, it is quite another to give evidence.

  • KYRANI Apr 03, 2012

    @ Parker
    Who has fear? Those that are oppressed? You reckon the good people can do something that heals all? Please tell me what can be done? There are evil people in the world that are growing in numbers and they get a kick out of hurting and killing good people and each other. So what do you propose they are just an illusion? All things that exist you want to accept, then you accept evil.

  • KYRANI Apr 03, 2012

    IMO.. I use it from time to time to express the fact. IMO = In My Opinion in case you don’t know what it means.
    We are discussing, which means we are offering our own experiences and belief of course! Apart from anything else in discussion we utilize the ego self, it is unavoidable most of the time. As Jim says “we are in the amusement park of conceptual thought” and there is nothing wrong with that. This life is about experience and even the illusion of personal self is an experience and nothing wrong with the experience so long as you realize it is an illusion. And for the reason that when you realize it is an illusion you don’t get trapped by it and enough to overcome suffering.. ie it is for your benefit!
    As for having a nice day.. IMO as there is no one to have the experience AND as the material reality is the external then I would call it an external experience. I know that contradicts with science but they are stuck on matter and at the same time trying to make out that there is a self that is created out of brain activity and they want to call it internal.. NOT MY FAULT! Inner or Internal is in the mind and Outer or External is everything that is manifest, ie creation. Yes certainly what is manifest is mind made. ISness however is a whole different kettle of fish. I take it this is not what you meant.
    You are looking for a divide between self and other because you have accepted that there is no separation and that IMO and not just my opinion but my experience is not the reality. We are separate beings. We have all the spark of divinity within and that is what is realizes in enlightenment, the Universal Self experiencing itself within all but at the same time all is not the Universal Self/Identity. It is not a self or identity as we have had the sense in the personal self. It is Being and Non-Being, it is Reality, whatever words we try to use don’t describe it. It forever remains outside of discussion.

  • KYRANI Apr 03, 2012

    Okay, I see where you’re coming from and it is an interesting point. Consciousness is the basic material. What we are calling energy may be consciousness and nothing else. And I know a lot of people seem to think that energy is some sort of ethereal “substance” that is the substance of everywhere and there is only one consciousness, but I don’t agree with this view. If you meditate and find the place of no-self, which I can hear you say you have, then you will find that there is emptiness or nothingness on the one side and being on the other. This is kind of borne out in modern physics because we find that a subatomic particle, like an electron for instance, pops in and out of being all the time. It seems to be moving around the nucleus but that is not what it is doing. To me this is consistent with my experiences and my understanding of Ultimate Reality.. to the limited extent that we can understand it because it is beyond comprehension. The true enlightenment experience is between the two extremes. It is not non-being and it is not being, and it is not either, nor neither. It is both being and non-being at the same time. Thus what gives us life, what is the spark of divinity within, does not mean we are made of it and thus all one. We can be graced and thus enlightened but I disagree with the Buddhist view that ultimately all beings will be enlightened and even more than that they are saying that all being are already enlightened and perfect as they are, good, bad or indifferent. I disagree with this view. They also say that we have to accept life just as it is and not seek to change it. If we did that then no one would work towards a just society. We would all go downhill and that’s fine kind of thing. I think this is not right nor the reality. I strongly suspect that Buddha’s teaching have either been partly lost, misunderstood or corrupted, after all there was nothing written down or we have nothing until after about 250years after the Buddha's death.

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 02, 2012

    Oldman, Thanks for this: Lets break the shroud that creates the illusion of separateness - by expressing our personal birth gifts - Courage - for coming here; Compassion for all life; Generosity of personal spirit to all around you; and humility in the acceptance of the gift of life. Remember that each step is a heart beat and every breath a prayer, for the world that will be in our unity.

    Really beautiful

  • parker Apr 01, 2012

    We overcome the illusion of separateness, when we defeat the fear within us. Absence of fear enables acceptance of all that is, simply because it is.

    When we accept all aspects of each other, it is because we have defeated all fear of each other. When we accept there are differences within us and among each other, it is because we have no fear of those differences.

    By defeating fear then, separateness is no longer veiled by illusion, because only illusion is fueled by fear. Therefore, without fear, there is no illusion. Whether any of the things that exist, are contingent upon their being unique, or existing in separateness, one from the other, is irrelevant. If all things that exist are accepted by us, then all things simply exist with us.

    concepts of countriesit e
    from each other
    from "other countries"
    from the universe?

  • Theoldman Apr 01, 2012

    The illusion of separateness promotes fear, control, destruction and delusion while the vision of unity inspires the reality of our potential creation and the freedom to choose either. "As above so below " is a repeated teaching inside almost all traditional forms around the world. The part that is not said and we find out personally is; we walk between these worlds.

    WE all have a higher and lower notion of ourselves and the world around us, as it is part of the unity of cosmic design. We are innately aware that we are actually connected and fear that others can see the "below" concept of ourselves. The illusion is thinking one can hide behind a closed mind. We will die to protect that illusion rather than have anyone point it out - which would mean we would have to face ourselves and then turn in humility.

    We realize that the meaning of us all being connected also has a quantum level of understanding. This could be understood in the idea of non-locality or the collective unconscious as we called it, now expressing itself as the Occupy Movement World Wide - or We Are All related - Mitakuye Oyasin. Unity of consciousness begins in the acceptance of the shadow within, that we all hide. Only then we can clean up the remaining areas where that shadow has blocked our collective dream of creation.

    Courage and compassion will come when we strive to drop duality and the power struggle view points. The left and right, the right and wrong, the light and dark, are like our understanding of relativity that has separated us to become the observer of our own reality; as if we could somehow remove ourselves from the cosmic unity of above and below/within.

    The illusion of separateness has sequestered us all to a separate reality that paradoxically is SEEKING UNITY - or retuning Home to the place where that memory resides. We are an individual species, not a species of individuals and the illusion of separation is perpetrated by con artists wearing the costumes of academia, government, church, bankers, and corporate controllers.The true cause of the chaos in our world is "their fear" that we are expressing for them, all the time knowing we can see their shadow. They are our shadow that tries to force our surrender to orchestrated fears that feed darkness,delusion and controlling our potential dream of creation. Lets break the shroud that creates the illusion of separateness - by expressing our personal birth gifts - Courage - for coming here; Compassion for all life; Generosity of personal spirit to all around you; and humility in the acceptance of the gift of life. Remember that each step is a heart beat and every breath a prayer, for the world that will be in our unity.
    Ta Canku Luta - his Road is Red

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 01, 2012


    I certainly agree with you that all teachers are not the real McCoy.

    It seems in these discussions that it is not only important to choose your words carefully, but one must speculate on every possible remote interpretation of what those words might be.

    It was not my intention to communicate that there is a clear, precise, distinct line of demarcation between levels of reality, cognition, consciousness etc.

    My post was an attempt to support you. It was an attempt to justify your reason for referring to the opinion of others as nonsense, garbage and for the birds in your comments to Parker, Slowlygetenthar and ProtectiveAngel.

    We seem to have more fun than a barrel of monkeys in the amusement park of conceptual thought…..Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Apr 01, 2012

    @ Kyrani

    I could argue that there is not self but that was not the question.
    You set yourself up are the all knowing in the manner in which you comment.
    At best we have your opinions, based on a personal belief system.
    You set up the debate and engagement here in a dynamic of self and other, those that argue with you, the "self" and the "other" that does not.

    Let's explore the word "is", as in It is a nice day. Does this tell you anything about the day? No, it tells you about my experience of the day, a trick of language. I am saying "I am having a nice day," an internal experience and not an external one.

  • KYRANI Apr 01, 2012

    Perspectives you say but you miss the point that on the physical level we may not be as separate as we appear to be. There is the divine spark within everyone but not everyone is part of the Divine. Evil people hate the divine spark within their being. We all have the potential there to go beyond everything, including the mind and consciousness. Everything is contain exist within the Ultimate Reality but we are not collectively the Ultimate Reality. There is a big difference. I’m afraid your “perspectives” and “levels of reality” don’t impress me.
    As for people dedicated to meditation for a life time and becoming teachers etc. Some are for real and other have a hidden agenda. Indeed some look like the real McCoy but are indeed the opposite.

    In reality there is no inner and outer. All is one. And I agree with you detachment is necessary not only from the outer things but also for inner ones too, like thoughts that are cherished and gives rise to personal self! You are right in saying that complete detachment is necessary. Renunciation is the real need. To renounce everything, to live as if each moment is your last, to be fully present and cling to nothing; To live life like the warrior that has no guarantee if he/she will live another second. And yes, this not about abandoning others, your possession, those things that are needed to sustain the body, the work that you do. It is a different position, in a sense a different mindset from the one that says mine, mine, mine. It is a realization that what we are is the One, which is behind the appearances and that comes by Grace, but at the same time we do have a choice to make, to live with truth as the supreme ruler of our hearts. The “us” as in the collective of all of the appearances is not a Oneness, a One or The Oneness as is implied by this thread IMO.

    you ask if otherness is rooted in the internal of self. There is no internal of self. It's an illusion. And adhering to that illusion of self is extremely destructive.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Apr 01, 2012

    Let us first ask where the divide starts, where does the sense of self emerge from, and the divide of otherness occur. We see other in the external manifestations but it is rooted in the internal of self.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Apr 01, 2012


    After posting my comments relative to the Buddhist perspective i.e. thought is a sensory experience, I was in a rather pleasant state of no ego.

    After reading your comment referring to my post as brilliant, I find myself encumbered by an immense ego. Please, no more flattery! (:,

    Your comment relative to the value of detachment resonates with Buddhist thought. Your reference to the ego-self as a hindrance to detachment is something that I should hold close in awareness.

    At times, when engaged in conversation, it seems easy for me to forget the profound spiritual value in detachment and ego abandonment.….Jim

  • moretocome Apr 01, 2012

    @ Jim - Your comments regarding different 'Perspectives / levels of reality' were absolute brilliance, IMHO.


    How do we overcome the illusion of separateness?

    In my view, it's DETACHMENT (of the OUTER) & CONNECTION (to the INNER).

    DETACHMENT involves surrendering your ATTACHMENT to the OUTER world by going WITHIN to gain WHOLENESS (or Oneness). Therefore, to gain ‘mastery’ over the illusion, you have to be willing to let go of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE (i.e. complete Detachment).

    DETACHMENT is a key to Transformation. It can be a painful process because of the ego-self’s attachments. You don’t have to get up and physically leave everyone and everything. It is an INNER DETACHMENT. Once you’ve arrived at the place where you are willing to let go of everything (and everyone), that’s all that is necessary. If you are willing to let go (on an INNER level), you have overcome the inevitable necessity of having to let go involuntarily (through OUTER circumstances). It is an 'inevitable necessity' because of the impermanence of all manifested form.

    Some mistake Detachment with a lack of caring. However, this couldn’t be further from the Truth. With complete Detachment, one has gained the understanding that there is truly nothing to be concerned with. There is only ONE of 'us'. The deeper your CONNECTION to the Oneness, the greater the ability to embody (live) the PERFECTION of the Oneness. All that is contrary to ONENESS is just part of the illusion.

    This CONNECTION TO SOURCE can be achieved through various methods. The following are a few ways: Meditation, Contemplation, Practicing the Presence, staying in Present Moment, focusing thought on Oneness, focusing thought on Source, Love, etc.

    Love to ONE (and All).

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 31, 2012

    In order to include a larger number of participants in these discussions, it seems appropriate to elaborate on the position that thought is a sensory experience.

    Thirty years ago just about every textbook on physiology explained that there are no colors out there in reality. What we perceive as color is different wavelengths of reflected light.

    Today, through the revelations of quantum physics and other branches of science, we learn that what is out there beyond our senses are waves of invisible energy which through the filtering and processing of our sensory organs, we experience sight, taste, touch, smell and sound.

    The Buddhist proclamation that thought is a sensory experience means that our experience of thought is our brains interpretation of waves of energy that are not detectable to our other sensory organs.

    Unless we are in an extreme state of nirvana, or imagining that we are in such a state……when we hear the sound of a bird singing, we do not get the impression that it is “me” that is singing. The same should be true for thought; it is not “me” that is thinking it is our brain processing invisible wave forms that translate into the experience of thought. From this perspective there is a dilution of ego, beyond what we normally consider to be an absence of ego…..Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 31, 2012

    Perspectives! We are all one-we are not all one. There are levels of reality and each level provides a different perspective. What will cause you to be looked upon with esteem on one level could cause you to be viewed as a fool on another level. So, when considering ideas such as separateness, we should consider that on one level of reality we are separate and on another level we are not separate.

    Disagreement occurs when we take conclusions formed on one level of reality and an attempt is made to apply them to another level of reality.
    If we take the position that the fundamental nature of humans is consciousness and that consciousness is not isolated units contained in individual brains, but a characteristic of the universe; we can take the perspective that we are all one.

    When we take that perspective that we are all one, formed on one level of reality and apply it to the reality in which separateness exists i.e. governments, belief systems, good and evil etc, it appears as nonsense.

    I am using the metaphor of levels of reality. We could us the metaphor of different levels of perception, different levels of cognition, different levels of consciousness or different paradigms.

    Jack Kornfield is one of the most respected teachers of Buddhism in the western world. Listening to his recorded lectures describing how individuals devote their entire life to meditation and exploring the nature of mind and thought reveals a level of dedication that is beyond the limits of my comprehension. His teaching that thought is a sixth human sensory experience is profoundly convincing. When we accept this teaching, there is the inclination to take our divergent views less seriously…..Jim

  • KYRANI Mar 31, 2012

    @ Parker and ProtectiveAngel
    "We is you and it is I and it is us" is for the birds! Maybe those ducks you mentioned elsewhere. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.
    @ Slowlygetnthar
    There is no illusion of separateness to overcome because we are not all one. There is a One Mind and we are all mind made but that still does not make us all one. To give an example of what I mean, suppose that you have a daydream. In the daydream you have created characters and you have provided a narrative (maybe even starting with oops) and the belief you uphold will also add to that narrative. Then you sit back and observe the play in the mind. The characters interact according to the narrative that you have given. Plot is character and character becomes plot. You created them all and they are all within the mind but they are not all one. If you could give those characters consciousness, then those characters could potentially abide with you. But they will not all be able to do so, because the narrative or plot has made their character and that determines what they do, and in turn the plot that develops. The seeds of today’s deeds were planted in the beginning of time. However it is not a static situation. The characters develop from the original state to be what they become and they are all different. They may fall into two groups that could be called “them and us” because those two groups exist across from the great divide. And of course I am talking about good and evil. A person who is humane and ethical is not the same as one who is demonic and unjust for the sake of being unjust, for the pleasure gained by hurting others.

    This is the same position as that of people like Gregg Baden who claims that
    “There is a we and we’re part of everything, we are part of every government that has ever been in power, we’re part of every atrocity that has ever happened, we’re part of all the beautiful life and the inventions. It’s all part of this same field by virtue of its understanding”. This.. IMO is not the case, it’s garbage.

    The "we are all one" of Gregg Baden is in the same vein in a sense to those who say that Hitler and his band of Nazis gassed the Jews and anyone else he could justify killing because underneath it all he was just a little boy that was hurting. I’m sorry but I find that offensive. We are not a unified field as is supposed because we are more than the physical body. The physical body is only a temporary garb. There is no “we” that are part of everything, every government, every atrocity, every beautiful life etc. And this is reflected in religion. In the Gita we are instructed by Arjuna to fight against the evil people or “evil doers” as they call themselves, so that they get to call themselves “doers”. Ha! The same is said in the Koran, the Bible etc. Indeed we have a duty to stand against evil and fight to the death if need be to win against evil.

  • ProtectiveAngel Mar 29, 2012

    That is beautiful and I understand.

  • parker Mar 29, 2012

    We is you and it is I and it is us. We are, because we know ourselves to be. The intelligence that we may be of, is the one, but each of us is from the one, therefore we are not the one, but only of it. It, the one, is not "nothingness", nor is it necessarily all that is, it is merely all we know there is.

    When the one that is all we know, wills it so, then we will know more of the one, and we will be more of the one, for now we are only a small part of it. This is not difficult to understand.

  • frequencytuner Mar 28, 2012


    Who is "We"? You said "we" are the creators of the separateness. The separation is unto itself as a condition of existence. Without separation-contrast-duality-polarity-all would unite into nothingness. After all, nothingness is All That Is. The mind ("we") is creator of the illusion, true, yet in a more subtle, profound and contradictory way that most are willing to understand. The illusion is like this: Drop a mirror at your feet. How many of your own faces do you "see"? How many "exist"?

    This is not easy to grasp.

  • parker Mar 28, 2012

    Gretchen Dreisbach:

    You are a visual artist. If others are to enjoy and comprehend your artistic expressions, then your expression is contingent upon their seeing it. Your art becomes a medium of inter-connectivity between beings, much like the more primitive tools of words or speech do, but with a more subjective objectivity. All such tools are extensions of thoughts, which when converted by the chosen tool of the originator, may then be perceived by others.

    All that exists, has either already been so converted or expressed by its creator, or is being converted, or awaits such conversion, and is as you say, inter-connected, so as to enable all of us to perceive it in our own time, and in our own way. Thus all that is thought, whether offered outwardly from its creative originator, or whether perceived and accepted inwardly by its equally creative recipient, is "expression". Life is expression, and expression is Life - they are contingent realities.

    Expression is all that is. It is the essence of Life itself. It is the essence of the Love, that is of the Life, that is the expression of itself. Without expression, "we" would not be. We could not experience Love. We would have no communion, nor would we have any possible way of knowing anything.

    Anything and everything including Love, exists, yet no single thing can be experienced without our first being made aware of it through expression. Expression is contingent upon at least two comprehending beings. Love, like our very Lives, and like the very knowledge of these things, is contingent upon an omni-directional capacity to be expressed.

    You are correct, we do not have to "see it" to believe it, yet if we were not able to express it, we would not even be able to know of it, let alone be able to experience it. To be of the essence of the Love that is Life, that Love must first be expressible. Likewise knowledge. To be of the fullness of the knowledge that is of Life, that knowledge must first be expressed by its originator, otherwise we could not possibly come to know it, let alone to experience the fullness or the joy of it.

    This is our hope, that we may not forget our first Love, the inner source of all knowledge.

  • Gretchen Dreisbach Mar 28, 2012

    What if someone decided to invent 5D glasses? (In the same way there are movies made to view with 3D glasses?)

    We would be able to SEE the interconnectedness of ALL of our patterns of non-locality.
    EVERYTHING that we eat, breathe, touch, THINK, etc. etc.is merging into and onto itself and ALL that is!

    We would be able to SEE that of course the wind has consciousness. We would be able to SEE that the consciousness of every drop of water is connected to the consciousness of ALL water!

    When one creature consumes another (like a whale ingesting a sea lion) it is really just a joining of the two patterns of color, light, (and sound) merging together...

    When we walk in a crowd our astral bodies bump and merge like gentle bubbles adhering to each other.

    Even if we are sitting alone in a room wearing our 5D glasses we would be able to SEE that the walls and the chairs do indeed have consciousness as well.

    It would be IMPOSSIBLE to ever claim separation again if we could SEE the entangled web of life which extends outwards into the Multiverse and beyond! Would we then be surprised to see that the stars (which are actually sun energy portals) are all connected as well?
    What if we could SEE beyond our own dear Solar Portal Sun to the Great, GREAT, GREAT, Central Sun?

    What if we could now also SEE all of our thoughts, words, actions, and emotions highlighted in this web?
    Would we CHOOSE to practice greater mindfulness?

    The Multidimensional bleedthrough would be an incredible sight to witness I imagine!

    The question is: Why do we have to SEE it to believe it?
    The answer is we don't: Because 5D is LOVE!

  • parker Mar 28, 2012


    I will say it with the nicest of intentions; your comments are self-defeating. You are indeed capable of understanding and interpreting what "it" is, meaning of course, the "separateness" referenced within the original discussion thread. And you are correct, if it exists, and it does, then it simply "IS".

    But your conclusion that simply because it IS, it therefore must always be, is erroneous. Its current state of existence does not preclude the possibility of it not always being what it now IS. If it is indeed "we" that experience the current separateness, then even if we temporarily accept it as you suggest, we have no choice but to accept it is being a result of our own doing. We know of no rule or law that established us having been made or brought into existence to remain in this separateness. Such would only be conjecture and imaginary supposition at best.

    Therefore, being that we are the creators of this separateness, we also remain capable of re-creating, or changing it, which is simply another way of saying, we can overcome what we have thus far imperfectly created. To suggest otherwise is to suggest we possess no free will whatsoever, thus we would of all creations, be the most pitiful.

  • frequencytuner Mar 27, 2012

    There is no need to overcome the illusion. There is no possibility of overcoming it either. There is simply the willingness to understand and interpret it for what it truly IS. Trying to overcome the illusion is like trying to breathe without exhaling.

  • parker Mar 27, 2012

    To over come the illusion of separateness, we need to learn to think like ducks. Humans tend to misunderstand the one little characteristic they possess that holds the potential for elevating them above the ducks. Ducks, like people, have natural rights and liberties pursuant to a most fundamental and natural law. They also have limiting instinct, whereas we have been blessed with free will, but unfortunately, not with sufficient intelligence to utilize it properly.

    Our free will has caused us to lose sight of all of our natural rights, liberties, freedoms and natural laws - the ones still enjoyed by ducks. Instead we have changed our focus, and elevated our perspective toward a myriad of man-made rules, regulations and fiction laws, not to mention fiction values and equally artificial commercial activities.

    Through these artificial fiction creations, we teach our children to strive for financial and other forms of independence, while knowing of course, that any form of independence is a characteristic totally contrary to our natural make up. We were designed and made as social creatures, like ducks, yet contrary to our inherent and natural nature, we teach and learn that it is good to live and behave independently, and to be self-reliant in many ways. It was an interesting, but failed experiment

    Mankind has deliberately, perhaps unwittingly, but deliberately nonetheless, created an artificial culture of separateness within virtually every known society, and nurtured the fictional values of those multi-cultured societies with delusional expectations of achieving satisfaction through this un-natural independence.

    We must first admit we have been wrong. Then accept our admission, and simply choose to revert to the original, natural plan of natural rights, freedoms, liberties and laws. Natural laws, like gravity, are timeless and do no harm, Equally timeless are the naturally inherent laws that we each know from within our very nature, such as we know not to harm others, and we know not to harm the property of others, even when we know we have never been told these things. Because these natural things are naturally a part of us. We did not need to attempt to improve on nature, yet without even fully understanding it, we erroneously chose to try and one up it.

    We were free of course to make such un-natural choices, just as we remain free to admit these choices have been made in error. Yet we find an ego within the human construct, that makes it difficult to the point of near impossibility for us to admit we have been wrong. We will achieve a sense of community that will overcome the illusion of separateness, when we decide to truly exercise our collective free will once again.

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