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An Interesting Overview

Posted March 6, 2012 by Jim Centi in Open

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commented on May 14, 2012
by dustproduction



Hello all,

This link was sent to me along with a transcript of the dialogue in the video, which I pass on to you. In the broadest sense, the video relates to the science of IONS.

I found that the transcript brought to my attention information that I missed when watching the video. Was this your experience? Is there anything that you do not agree with?


1. The first words reflect that our perception of the world is determined by the size of our consciousness and it stresses the value of expanding our consciousness. It goes on…..there is an ocean of clear, vibrant consciousness inside each of us and it is right at the source and base of mind, at the source of all thought and it is right at the source of all matter.

2. There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume that behind this force is the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind, this mind is the matrix of all matter. Max Planck, is the physicist who discovered quantum physics and the founder of quantum theory.

3. The solidity of the world seems totally indisputable; fixed things that we can see and touch, but since Einstein, modern physics has assured us that this solidity is a mirage.

4. All physical matter, everything that we have around us, is the result of a frequency and what that also means is, if you amplify the frequency, the structure of the matter will change.

5. This self contained system is a hologram, what I call the super hologram. Everything within it is an expression of the hologram. One of the characteristics of a holographic picture is that every part of it is a smaller version of the whole.

6. It is as if reality is so connected that if you look at one small part, you can see things about other parts; the entire whole is contained in the parts. And in a sense, you can’t divide reality up because you’re cutting up a hologram; you can’t find where one particle is because it is always a reflection of all particles.

7. In a hologram, the whole pattern is whole and complete unto itself and if you were to take any little portion of this whole out and examine it closely you will see the entire pattern repeating itself again, again and again. Anywhere in this pattern, if we were to change one little aspect on anyone of these holograms, that change would be reflected throughout the entire system.

8. Quantum physics has revealed what [inaudible] masters will, with certainty that matter does not exist. The concept of substance arose from the philosophy of Aristotle and from that philosophy came science’s conception of matter. The fact of the matter is that the substance of the universe is consciousness. Belief that the substance of the universe is matter, leads to what I call a fear embodied dichotomy, as people in their quiet desperation, attempt to accumulate as many material possessions and riches as possible. In fact, the substance of the universe is consciousness; therefore, it is behavior that is important.

[My comment]
In watching the video, I simply did not fully appreciate comment #8 and comments which follow that relate to social programming and manipulation…..Jim

9. If you get into the realms of fear, fear is a very slow, dense vibrational state. The more you embody fear - and the whole of this manipulated society is structured to make us fear, to make us have stress, to make us worry about tomorrow - and have guilt about yesterday and forget about now – it brings us into a very slow vibrational dense state.

10. We should be very careful what we believe about the future. The more you attach to a belief system, the more you….if reality is holographic you are helping create it by believing it. You know the great clairvoyant Edgar Cayce said that reality is built out of thought and our every thought is like a spider building a web and that web begins to build and build.

11. Information is the key because this matrix, this illusory reality that we think is real…people say to me “What is the matrix?” answer, its information.

12. Information creates fractals; as information increases the number of fractals increase, mathematically speaking. This was demonstrated by a mathematician named Theodore Gordon. Fractals are unpredictable functions, so things are becoming more and more unpredictable.

13. When you start getting into fractals and chaos theory, when you look at it in terms of a society….this is where it starts to cross over into the so called Illuminati or the negative elite, the world leaders with their philosophy of order out of chaos. There is some truth to that, in the sense that when the system becomes highly unstabilized, there will be random shifts that suddenly self organize into higher complexity.

14. At the subatomic level, reality behaves in accordance with the expectation of the observer or the measurer, the scientist. Everything in the universe is composed of those subatomic particles.

15. These atoms are atomic particles that are moving at lightening speeds along huge empty spaces and the particles are not material objects, they are fluctuations of energy and information in a huge volume of energy and information.

16. What science is now showing is that when you can change the field that the atom is in, you change the atom; you are made of those atoms. So when we have feelings in our heart, we are changing the field that connects the stuff that everything is made of and we are literally altering our physical reality.

17. Once you establish the reality that we live in and the nature of what the physical body is, a biological computer, and what we are, which is consciousness, and then you start looking, as I have, at the way this world is structured and how it works and why they do this and why they do that….it suddenly brings into crystal clarity why the world is structured as it is. Because people look through their eyes and they think, this is the world, but it isn’t. It’s a tiny, tiny frequency range within an infinite energy field of infinite frequency ranges and basically it is like a holographic television channel.

18. It is the act of consciousness that actually creates the building blocks the universe is made of. I can’t imagine a universe without us, because it is the act of us observing the world around us that is creating, allowing us to create as we go in this participatory universe. We may never find the edge of our universe as we are looking to find what this universe looks like, we may never find the smallest particle in the quantum world to see what this stuff is that were made of and the reason is that everywhere we look, everywhere that consciousness explores with the expectation that something will be there…that exploration, that act of looking, observation is the act that creates something for us to see that we’re actually building this universe as we go.

19. Consciousness is the programming language of the universe. We are consciousness conductors, that’s what we do, that’s who we are. Consciousness goes through or emanates through us. We are the creators; we are the ones who are targeted on this planet because we are the ones who come into this reality just like everyone else does. If you switch your brain off and your are sucked into the mainstream media illusion, we must understand that we are being used because we create reality so we are manipulated in a certain way and if we are modulated in a certain way, then our creation becomes not ours, but somebody else’s.

20. What happens if [unintelligible] taking control of reality, I’m talking about reality, I’m talking about quantum physics, I’m talking about taking control of things so on the quantum level up, from the molecular level up [unintelligible]some kind of opening system that can be hacked using [unintelligible].

21. The world is like a ride in an amusement park and when you choose to go on it, you think it’s real because that’s how powerful our minds are and the ride goes up and down and round and round, it has thrills and chills. Its brightly colored and it’s very loud and its fun….for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question ‘Is this real or is this just a ride?’ and other people have remembered and they come back to us and they say “Hey, don’t worry, don’t be afraid ever because it’s just a ride”.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 14, 2012

    I have searched the website and found few basic rules that address these discussions.
    Since the discussion posted here are in fact the property of IONS, the discussion is not personal, nor is it a debate, an argument, or a competition. Directions from others to others are therefore merely suggestion. All are free to ignore want they wish, and contribute what they wish, as they will. This need not be viewed as rude or improper since it does not violate any agreement with IONS.

    Additionally, comments posted that contain research, and reference provide the opportunity for further learning.
    To give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject is the definition of enlightenment.

  • slowlygetnthar May 14, 2012

    Bravo, Jim. Agreed! While Charliet is good at hearing voices through the noise, I am not as good at it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 14, 2012

    The illusion we live on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6twFHqJ03_k

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 14, 2012

    The term is "ancient masters" not Sufi Masters. I will not be responding to you in any topic, due to what I perceive as the insistence to aggressively argue tangential matters.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 14, 2012

    RE: 8. Quantum physics has revealed what [ Sufi ] masters will, with certainty that matter does not exist.

    Sufi is the word, "Sufi masters"

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 14, 2012

    'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' and 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' meaning, a small amount of knowledge can mislead people into thinking that they are more expert than they really are. This does no imply that the speakers in the video are not knowledgable, indeed most are. It means that the little knowledge that is conveyed has the danger of being parrotted without understanding.

    What do we know about Quantum Theory, or Planck's views? How much physics do we know? Not much is my guess.

    Planck's work was advanced by Einstein with his work on the photoelectric effect and for this reason, the philosopher Thomas Kuhn argues that Einstein should be given credit for quantum theory more so than Planck, since Planck did not understand in a deep sense that he was "introducing the quantum" as a real physical entity.(Kuhn 1978)

    Planck expected that "wave mechanics" would soon render quantum theory unnecessary. This was not to be the case, however.

    Einstein's E=mc2 explains the matter is energy

    In saying, "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Planck was indicating that he believed in some kind of God.( Planck 1944)
    It is unclearly whether Dyer is using the quote in this way in the video, or whether this is the intention of its use here.

    Planck also said, "Both Religion and science require a belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists He is at the end of all considerations… To the former He is the foundation, to the latter, the crown of the edifice of every generalized world view."
    Religion and Natural Science (Lecture Given 1937 M. Planck).

    A debatable point.

  • parker Apr 27, 2012

    @ Jim Centi:

    First I apologize for not responding to you sooner. Giving reasonable latitude to the limitations of English language, I think we generally agree that the material world is a form of an illusion, expressed so that we are easily tempted to be deluded by our self-desire to be comforted by an equally illusory sensory experience of it.

    Perhaps the most appropriate or productive individual state of mind would be for that individual to eclipse the puny state of his own ego-mind by accepting its limitations, thereby concurrently accepting that true knowledge and wisdom is not found within one's own mind, but finding it is within the reach of every one's mind. That wisdom and knowledge we seek as individuals, is not reliant upon us to determine what it is, it is merely reliant upon us becoming willing with determination to seek and accept it.

    Thus the more we learn as individuals to seek and accept what is, from that which may be observed by everyone, the more we will each increase our capacity to share with others for the collective social benefit. If as individuals with free will, we stop questioning the material world as if that material world could provide us with some profound explanations, and rather start to see within the observable things that we can and do experience, we will find that the illusion has been expressed this way in order to reveal itself and all knowledge of it, to us.

    Knowing of this (or anything) obligates us to sharing that knowledge of it, for there is no knowledge that is made or that exists for the use or the benefit of only one of us, or even only some of us.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 24, 2012


    I have been impressed with your comments in these discussions and would be interested in your views on the video in this topic; specifically, the theme that the material world is an illusion or mirage. This view has been promoted by mystics and now by science.

    In order to avoid having the ball tossed back to my court; I will qualify my request.

    Although I look within for answers, it cannot be denied that that we are often interested in and on occasion, influenced by the views of others; if it were not so there would be no justification for reading books or participating in these discussions. So from that perspective, I am requesting your views.

    Assuming that you agree that the material world is a illusion and that we are deluded by our intimate attachment to sensory experience, what do you consider to be an appropriate or productive state of mind from a personal and social perspective within that paradigm?....Jim

  • charliet Mar 21, 2012

    Hi Jim

    I think I have read and watched most everything that Gary Schwartz has done, very interesting guy, easy to read and listen to. He is one of the only people on the same track as me and others like me who publishes sound research into life after death.

    As far as I know he is still using tested and proven physics like John Edwards although he was beginning to receive some of his own contact through a spirit named Susy I believe, how this contact was made I am not sure.

    I wasn't aware that his web site was down, have not visited it for a while. See if the IONS staff can give you any direction on this.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 21, 2012


    Further to my last comment, Gary Schwartz who is a member of IONS had a website up several months ago where he planned to post about 10 of videos relating to afterlife encounter experiments that he conducted. I’m sure that he said he had contacted Einstein or some other prominent figure in science. I watched three of the videos and then the site disappeared.

    Do you know why the site is no longer up? Do you know if he was using EVP or some other technique?......Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 21, 2012


    Well, it was worth a shot.....Jim

  • charliet Mar 20, 2012


    Take a million normal sighted people and place them in front of a yellow building, have them secretly write down the color they see. Pretty sure they will all say yellow.

    Now have them all concentrate on changing the building color to red. Until someone comes along with some red paint the building will remain yellow.

    Also, not sure of exact numbers here - example purposes only, somewhere around 60% of the world is uneducated and illiterate, the remaining 40% may have around 30% of its numbers interested in science, physics, etc. If we all have equal ability and our "thoughts" are making up the flow of the universe I would predict a very chaotic world and universe, this is not the case, everything appears to have order and purpose.

    And to over simplify some more, if you remove or add one electron from an atom, the whole structure changes.

    The double slit experiment does show some interaction and control but it is very minute.

    Remember, theories are theories, not fact.

  • KYRANI Mar 20, 2012

    @ Charliet
    It is not a case of “atoms shift slightly” but that the closer we look the more elusive they appear. And added to that we see what we select to see in that they will display the characteristics that we choose to see. I did say “we make it up as we go along” but really only to dramatically point this out. However Sheldrake is suggesting that we seriously influence everything including the laws of physics, that they are evolving according to what we believe, so in that sense we are making it up as we go along.

    Matter is not just nothing. It is seen now to be made of consciousness. I gather that is why at the beginning they are saying that how we perceive depends on the level of consciousness we are able to use. This of course in turn depends on our level of attention and most people employ some form of comfort zone, which is mental fuzz caused by some attenuation or distraction of attention.

    The question you raise of “why would all of our experienced creation as it exists here have been created if the end goal is nothing?” is one that has been raised by many, many people down through the ages. Why are we here? What is our purpose but in the here and here after? Who can answer this? Only God who created everything knows.

  • charliet Mar 20, 2012

    Hi Jim

    I do understand that you posted the video as purely conversational and you are not promoting it as truth but for discussion, and a good post it is.

    There is never any mention of illusion. They speak of objects here as existing and also speak of objects there as existing. Examples are, these are partial statements from contacts and relate to the spirit speaking of their world, "I was reading my book", "he has gone to bed", "I like my house", "the flowers are blooming", "it is raining today", "she's not home right now". These give one the impression of a world such as our own.

    Also, there is always reference to the "self", the indication is that there is a self and that we are all individuals, here and there.

    Can we believe their perspective? Why should we doubt it? They speak of their world and our world as being materially the same, the comforts of home so to speak.
    Do I believe them? Yes, I am given proofs all of the time, example: last night I was given a message which made no sense to me, this morning on my facebook there was a posting - the message foretold of the posting.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 20, 2012


    First, I want to be sure that everyone understands that I am not an expert in these matters. I’m only passing on my understanding of what is being said in this video; it’s all open for discussion.

    Comment #8 is only a small part of the video. Much of the remainder of the video utilizes quantum physics to support the statement in #8 with regard to the illusory nature of the material world.

    One of the reasons that I’m attracted to all this is because of my long interest in the teachings of mystics. A commonality in their teachings is that the material world is illusion. In addition, I’m relying on a personal experience discussed in other topics.

    If I understand the theme of the video correctly, the mountainous terrain, the rock that falls on us, our physical bodies and the pain we experience are all an expression of the illusion of the material world in which we find ourselves.

    In order to add some credibility to this, I’m posting a link to another video in which Dean Radin, Sr. scientist at IONS speaks. This video can be viewed as an extension of the video originally posted and the two should be viewed as a single communication. Dean is one of several speakers in the video. A portion of Dean’s statement follows:

    “When we look deeply enough into the nature of matter, everything we know about the everyday world dissolves; there are no objects anymore, there are only relationships. There’s no locality anymore there’s no time anymore. The more you look at something in detail, what we think of as solid matter, the less and less solid it begins to look.”


    Charliet, I must ask you if the spirits view their world as real and the material world as illusion and can we rely on their perspective?….Jim

  • charliet Mar 19, 2012

    Re #8 - matter does not exist, it is an illusion.

    We know that atoms come together to form objects, and true, if those atoms shift slightly the object changes or may disappear.

    Obviously objects (matter) does exist, if you see a chair in a room,it is there, it will be there after you leave and if not moved by anything it will be there when the next person enters the room. Some objects have been here for a very long time, rocks for example.

    If you were on a hike in mountainous terrain and a rock fell from above you would feel its impact as it hit you, that's a pretty firm and hard illusion.

    Point is, objects - matter, forms our world, we are here and the matter is placed here for how ever long it needs to be in this time period, we interact with it. When we leave this time period the matter will still be here for the next span of usefulness. We can help make or shape some of this matter, like the chair.

    I believe that matter exists throughout the universe, there is not just nothing as some seem to think, what would be the purpose of nothing, why would all of our experienced creation as it exists here have been created if the end goal is nothing?

  • KYRANI Mar 18, 2012

    @ Jim
    I think we are basically saying the same thing. Of course it is not a philosophical consideration. Your remark there of "lean in the direction of an interest in matters of consciousness and/or spirituality" is what I was alluding to. I see that behind the behaviour of wanting more possessions and going outwardly is a failure in the way in which people relate to one another. And the way that people relate to one another can and does lead to greater spiritual awakening. This is why ethics is so fundamental in all religions. Yes it has been distorted by corrupt priests etc and turned into a political tool but at the basis of ethics is a doorway to enlightenment, not just for one or two people but a whole community of people.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 17, 2012

    Thank you for the offer to help with my health issue, but things are under control.

    My remark “KYRANI will drop in and lay some enlightenment on us”, was made in a light hearted manner. I did not mean enlightenment in the spiritual sense. Considering the extensive and intelligent work you put into the “Brain Scientist etc” topic, I respect your skills of analysis. It was my intention to communicate that if we got into trouble in this topic, I believe that you would be capable of dropping in and shedding some light on a particular issue rather than requesting help from the IONS staff. I truly regret any misunderstanding.

    Wrt comment #8, your perception and comment is good, but I have a different take on it. I believe that his intention was to communicate that the paradigm of materialism causes the behavior pattern of devoting lives to the accumulation of material possessions and/or material wealth.

    When we accept that consciousness is primary and matter is secondary i.e. our fundamental nature is consciousness, we are motivated to lean in the direction of an interest in matters of consciousness and/or spirituality and not be obsessive about material wealth or possessions.

    IMHO, his reference to behavior indicates that the matter of consciousness vs. matter is more than simply a philosophical consideration; it has an important influence on human behavior patterns…..Jim

  • KYRANI Mar 17, 2012

    sorry to read that you have had a health issue. I have a lot of experience with health issues and I am willing to help you if you want my help. I can also maybe shed some like on the matter you brought up on EVP. It seems to me a matter of presented ideas by people you know well. If you are interested you can email me. As for enligtenment, if it was in my power I would bestow enlightenment on you but it is not in my power. It is a matter of Grace and wanting it more that anything, more than than this life.

    wrt comment #8 the part that says "the substance of the universe is consciousness; therefore, it is behavior that is important". IMO could have been better said as "the substance of the universe being consciousness, the way we relate to one another is important". Ethics is all about how we relate to one another. If we have equality of relationship then we do not play games that may generate issues for other people and ourselves. This makes a huge difference, not only in suffering, but more important in being aware of Reality instead of being ignorant of it, with suffering being one of the ill effects.We move into a new dimension if we all become enlightened.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 15, 2012


    As previously stated, the four videos are a powerful force in removing materialism from its stature as the dominant reality paradigm. It’s important to recognize some of the reasons why it’s important to abandon materialism.

    When materialism is replaced with the idea that consciousness is primary matter is secondary, considerable credibility will be granted to psi, meditation, the work of Gary Schwartz, charliet’s work on EVP, mystical experience, intuition etc.

    I realize that quantum physics can be cumbersome and we need not focus exclusively on it, but a general sense of its implications is helpful. An important point in the video is contained in comment #8 i.e. behavior is an important reason for switching paradigms.

    As previously stated, the negative influence that materialism has caused in the world is staggering. It holds that human characteristics such as compassion for others, altruism and a sense of justice have no intrinsic value as they represent nothing more than the random interaction of atomic particles within the brain.

    Can we imagine a world in which the influence of materialism has been diluted or even eliminated? It’s not necessary to answer that; it’s a rhetorical question…..Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 15, 2012


    We are part of a multilevel network by being involved with IONS. Unfortunately for our ego’s, we here in Discussions, may be on the lowest level of the network.

    At perhaps the highest level of our network is a group of individuals who have created at least four videos that I am aware of; the one posted here, the one posted in the healing topic and two others. The speaker in the healing video also appears in the video posted here.

    Dean Radin is a part of the other two videos, along with several who appear in this video and the other two. In one video only Dean’s voice is heard as visuals related to quantum physics appear; in the other video he appears in person and discusses quantum physics.

    In response to your question what can we do as individuals? I believe you and I are playing a small part by commenting on this video and keeping the door open for others to participate.

    I believe that if comments about this video reaches a point where assistance is required, we may be able to call upon help from some member of the IONS staff, but long before we require help from the staff, I’m sure that KYRANI will step in and lay some enlightenment on us……Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 14, 2012

    Jim, you are asking a big question. The first thing we could do is turn off our tv's! The second thing is not carry the hand-held devices everywhere, obsessing about them. People would be forced to actually use their brains to figure things out, instead of Googling every single thing or finding an ap to do it for them.

    These electronic devices are also undermining social interaction. I cannot count the number of times per day that I see people play with a phone or device in order to avoid contact with a person passing by in the street or at a checkout stand. This is also making people less experienced at dealing with other humans and uncharted/unscripted situations. Part of what makes us smart is learning how to navigate all the bumps and weirdness of daily life, communicating with all kinds of people, and observing our world. These things don't happen if someone has his/her nose shoved up against a device 24/7.

    So, maybe that would be a start? I will keep thinking on your question. What do you think?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 14, 2012


    Your comment reflects that you are keenly aware, on a personal level, of the last paragraph of my previous comment.

    “This video effectively invalidates materialism. It also reveals how materialism creates an illusory reality or matrix which imprisons common folk and makes them easily manipulated within a consumer driven economy. This illusory matrix benefits the elitist segment of the world’s population.”

    What you have observed is the generation you are familiar with being absorbed into the illusory reality or matrix discussed in the video.

    Do you believe that we common folk, as individuals or through networks, can do anything at all to shatter the illusory matrix?......Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 14, 2012

    Yay! Jim! Glad to hear outta you. I appreciate your distinctions between materialist ideology and science.

    One thing you said really struck a cord regarding materialism and consumerism. I have actually grown deeply concerned about our society because people are being taught to be passive consumers of info via reality tv, internet, news loops--and not being taught to evaluate information or be discretionary in the quality of what info we are consuming. Furthermore, we are also being taught to be consumers of goods, not producers/creators of anything. Our economy suffers as a result. More than this, since I am a teacher, I see that students are less creative (than previous decades) and have not developed reasoning skills that they should have naturally attained by the time they enter college. It makes me think we are becoming stupider, as a society, because of this passivity and non-productivity. To me, it is alarming. I don't think it bodes well for the direction we are heading.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 14, 2012

    KYRANI & slowlygetnthar,

    My reason for taking a leave was related to a health issue that caused a loss of interest in everything and deterioration in mental acuity. Although I will not be a regular in these discussions, I may pop in very infrequently. Since I’m here, I’ll post something related to this topic.

    Scientific materialism or material reductionism [to be referred to simply as materialism] has dominated traditional science for over three centuries.

    Materialism is the reality paradigm for those who are members of or wish to be associated with the elitist segment of the world’s population. In its extreme form, it holds that human characteristics such as compassion for others, altruism and a sense of justice have no intrinsic value as they represent nothing more than the random interaction of atomic particles within the brain.

    The presence of this paradigm in the world is recognizable and its negative influence is staggering.

    Materialism is not science, it is an ideology.

    Science is supported by scientific data that can be verified by repeated experimentation.

    Ideologies are supported by assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified. They can be invalidated by presenting an alternative paradigm supported by scientific evidence.

    Materialism is taught in most science classes as a paradigm not to be questioned; it follows that many scientists are unaware that materialism is not science, but an ideology.

    This video effectively invalidates materialism. It also reveals how materialism creates an illusory reality or matrix which imprisons common folk and makes them easily manipulated within a consumer driven economy. This illusory matrix benefits the elitist segment of the world’s population. …….Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 08, 2012

    Bravo, Kyrani!

  • KYRANI Mar 08, 2012

    Ah Jim, Jim you say you stand corrected and then you want to run away. I recall you saying "I would gladly give up all that for a primitive existence, if that primitive existence provided the divine state of grace and beyond description awe, where the familiar human sense of self does not exist".
    So let me give you some of Jalalodin Rumi's advice,
    "If thou art Love's lover and seekest Love,
    then take a keen knife and cut the throat of bashfulness.
    Know that reputation is the greatest obstacle on The Path."

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 08, 2012

    Well, Jim, I think it is sad that you want to ~wink out~. I find your contributions thought-provoking.

    I am no expert on Aristotle, just had to read sizeable insomnia-curing quantities of some of his stuff--but not all of it. So, don't bow to me.

    Like you, I think I have spent a lot of time here, recently. These discussions make me think beyond my daily mundane routine, so I appreciate the great thought put into commentaries here.

    I shall don my tin foil helmet and try to stimulate my gray cells for a tad longer...

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 08, 2012


    My comment that science and society were programmed to view reality from a materialistic perspective due an assumption by Aristotle was an error and I stand corrected.

    I bow to your knowledge of the writings of Aristotle and recognize that my enthusiasm over the importance of this video, specifically comment #8, was greatly exaggerated.

    I have reassessed the value of my contribution to these discussions. Considering the scant number of participants to them and other factors, I find my time devoted to these discussions has reached a point of diminishing returns and have elected to take a leave of absence from them.

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 07, 2012

    Okay, I will try to keep it simple.

    The way the statement re: Aristotle is worded, it seems to say that the materialistic way of thinking arises from him, and I think that is not entirely accurate. I think others built on his and justified their own, utilizing his, instead of him being the one who has defined materialism for all ages...though he did write about the nature of matter. So, yes, I do refute that “science and society were programmed to view reality from a materialistic perspective, due to an [assumption] by Aristotle.” Whatever Aristotle was stating, much of the age of empiricism that we are witnessing really arose as the product of the Age of Enlightenment, when methodologies for modern sciences were being "set."

    Anyway, yes, also according Aristotle, claims can be invalid if one of the premises (of a syllogism) is not cogent. I haven't taught logic in awhile, but I think I have that straight....I hope...

    I have seen scarier writing than you can imagine, so there is NOT a whole lot on these discussion boards that I find daunting. I only find it troubling when folks seem to be channeling via a tin foil helmet some esoteric opiated dogmatic half-wit from another dimension who cannot acheive clarity given a lens the power of the Hubble and a direct brain transfusion from the Oxford English Dictionary. I am quite certain, though, others view my postings as equivalent to that as well!

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 07, 2012


    As you seem to be a student of Aristotle, I am a fan of Thoreau, especially his quote “Our lives are frittered away by detail....simplify.....

    With that in mind, I would like to explore the first paragraph of your comment and be clear as to its meaning.

    In comment #8 the speaker states “The concept of substance arose from the philosophy of Aristotle and from that philosophy came science’s conception of matter.”

    Does your first paragraph refute the validity of that that statement?

    Someone once said that all systems of thought are supported by one or more premises relating to the nature of reality, if one of those premises is invalid, the whole system of thought is invalid……or something to that effect. If comment #8 is being refuted, the validity of much of the video is marginalized.

    I would much prefer that my comment “science and society were programmed to view reality from a materialistic perspective, due to an [assumption] by Aristotle.” was being refuted.

    For the sake of preserving the validity of the video, I would gladly accept a direct affront to my perception and indirectly, to my ego. I feel somewhat emasculated anyway by engaging in dialogue with a writing instructor. For the sake of clarity in our communications, please feel free to be direct…..Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 07, 2012

    As for Aristotle, I thought he said: "... the soul is the primary substance and the body is matter.” He did assume the two were connected, but chiefly for the purpose of the sorts of analyses he was making, not necessarily for the purpose of proving one occurred before or as the result of the other. People have taken it and run with it. It's easier to describe the world, as it is seen (scientific catalogueing of material reality), than to reconfigure our conceptualizations of it (paradigm shift). Thus, cataloguing is probably one way we have developed all the various disciplines, today, and the theories about them.

    Social sciences and science--education, medicine, economics, politics, consumerism and science --are our expressions in material world, thus they are material constructs. In Education, as a discipline, however, there may be material constructs--school systems, higher ed and other institutions--but what holds them together is the simple NOTION that they exist as schools, in the first place.
    The governing boards, administrators, teachers, parents and students,
    all operate in loosely linked connections to one another,
    in levels/layers that influence one another, but operate independently of one another,
    and in different manners within the social mental construct of a school or school system
    according to what their individual roles are in relationship to the NOTION of the school.

    We have virtual--online--schools doing this, too, now. The NOTION of what defines "school" for any actor (admin,. teacher, student, school board, etc.,...) may be different. So, what I see is that we mutually agree on something existing, and it exists, materially, but the character of the existing "school" is different to different people who individually hold a NOTION conceptualizing a "school" (a collective construct) in the first place.

    So, if we want to analyze how things come about materially, whether the constructs we have for them is wrong, then, we need to first arrive at determining what the heck the THING is, to begin with. We may all, individually, be holding pieces of the definition, constructing the thing, not from whole cloth, but by holding together the various fragments we conceptualize it as and trying, collectively, to make a coherent picture from all those pieces. Lots of fields use this methodology, which certainly echoes some attempt by our brains to construct reality.

    ( Vygotsky would have a field day with all this.)

    A week or more ago, I asked folks to list what characteristics they thought might constitute paradigm shift and very few have done so. It seems that we are still wrestling with how we would conceptualize "Our New Reality" without winding up with "Brave New World."

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Mar 07, 2012


    Thank you for the interesting comments relative where you are in your work and the invitation to start a dialogue and work through this a bit at a time.

    As for my bio, I was a VP in a bank trust department and due to a merger, was given the opportunity to take a very early retirement.

    As for where to start a dialogue, I was particularly impressed by comment #8 which provides the point in history where both science and society were programmed to view reality from a materialistic perspective, due to an [assumption] by Aristotle.

    If our little section of society is motivated to promote a paradigm shift by reaching a critical mass of the populace, the assumption of Aristotle would be one place where writers, artists, video and movie makers could focus. Beginning at the time and place where the materialistic egg was hatched, themes could go on into a variety of fields; education, medicine, economics, politics, consumerism and science itself.

    As far as referring to the changes we hope to manifest, I like the term “Our New Reality”, coined by Dean Radin in his book “Entangled Minds”, but that is only a suggested name to be used when referring to the shift.

    Currently, I am exploring for other places where the video and transcript could be posted. I have no experience with Facebook, Twitter, Stumbeledupon etc, so if others would like to move in that direction, it’s a suggestion.

    Perhaps there are others who would like to expand upon this, offer criticism or suggest another starting point for dialogue…..Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Mar 07, 2012

    Wow, Jim, this is cool! I am overwhelmed as to where to start, though. Is there any one item where you would like to initiate a dialogue? We could start there and work through this a bit at a time...maybe?

    I teach writing. Much of the methodology that is now mainstream at colleges is based on the various models of the brain: right/left brain; neural network model; etc.,... Writing is taught as process. We are stuck at the neural network model, and have been since the 1970's.

    Anyway, I teach writing based on all these models, plus the holographic model, so I have long been contemplating "Consciousness is the programming language of the universe," how our brains store info in a manner similar to how a hologram is made, and how we are basically choosing the reality we will represent in a piece of writing (a la Schroedinger's cat.)

    I think I am on the right track with this methodology. Students "get" it and are open to it. Journals on teaching methodology will not publish my writings about it, however, because it is too cross-disciplinary and most folks in Rhetoric are not scientists, so I am uncertain journal editing boards understand the very basic and simple scientific concepts in the paper. I have verified all scientific assertions in the paper with physicists I know, so it is sound in its assertions.

    My discipline is another place where our little paradigm is stuck in the past and desperately in need of *shift*..

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