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Posted May 22, 2011 by Jim Centi in Open

commented on June 17, 2014
by NoetPoet



By Jim Centi

There is a lot of talk about paradigm shifts on this website. The premise seems to be that if the dominant materialistic paradigm were to be converted into a more pragmatic worldview, humanity will experience a paradigm shift and all will be well in the land of lollypops.

In the spirit of scientific method, let us gather a few relevant facts and form a hypothesis. At this point, no assumption should be made that the true nature of humanity is known.

It is known that consciousness is not isolated units contained in individual brains. It is known that consciousness is nonlocal and also known that consciousness is the fundamental characteristic of what has been viewed as the top of the evolutionary ladder.

It seems pretty clear that the fundamental nature of whatever humanity is nonlocal. This adds the characteristic of multidimensionality to concepts of the human self.

In his ground breaking work “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions”, Thomas Kuhn describes a paradigm shift as being compared to a sudden transport to another planet. Kuhn is not known as being prone to exaggeration, so what conclusion can be draw from the analysis of facts that is responsive to the profundity of Kuhn’s statement?

After abandoning preconceived notions relative to the nature of paradigm shifts and a bit of introspection, it should be apparent that one conclusion which may be drawn is that what has been categorized as “human being” is really a multidimensional entity that is becoming aware of its multidimensionality.

Some may take the position that this is an oversimplification of a deeply complex philosophical matter. In defense of such an accusation, I admit to being a fan of Thoreau who said “Our lives are frittered away by detail…...simplify…....simplify.”

I welcome the opportunity to read more sophisticated versions of this material and also welcome being made aware of flaws in this analysis that will provide the opportunity to climb the ladder of mental evolution.

The above was channeled from something that disparages our concepts of what we are. It is possible that something may have been lost in the translation of the communication into the amusement park of conceptual thought.

  • NoetPoet Jun 17, 2014


    "Your comments are contradictory to the books of Dean Radin and other books recommended by IONS."

    Yes the are. You say that as if it were grounds for ex-communication!

    "I have been growing in the direction of finding Discussions tedious, due to the lack of participation by well informed IONS members."

    I daresay that the "well-informed IONS members" you have in mind are a logical impossibility: anyone who is sufficiently well-informed about parapsychology *and* honest about the issue will inevitably side with "traditional" science. Just ask Susan Blackmore.

    "I’ll check in occasionally to see if well informed members of IONS begin participating in Discussions by critiquing your comments that are disparaging to the work of IONS. If they do, I may join them. If they do not, I can find peace by accepting what is and allowing Discussions to deteriorate further until it is under the complete domination of devotees to traditional science."

    Why don't you critique them yourself, rather than plugging books and relying on someone else to do the heavy lifting? Sticking your head in the sand will not make the arguments of your opponents any less valid.


  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 17, 2014

    Whenever there are definitive comments (NoetPoet's) that are not to the liking of others, or do not subscribe to the magical thinking of others beliefs, they stop participating in discussions. I am not certain this is such a great lose since most of the discussions here are by people that are here to discuss themselves, their subjective experiences, or their beliefs. None of these discussions focus on the research that is being done in these areas. If they did we what have something to discuss.

    Personally, I would welcome the knowledge that "crystals hold magic powers, or that there are sacred places of mystical power, that angels watch over us," or that there are other places for a spirit to reside in after our time here is over. But there is no evidence of any of this, and people have been looking for a long long time.

  • Anonymous Icon

    giorgos80 Jun 17, 2014

    I was surfing in internet looking for spiritual articles and i came across this site http://www.andrewcharalambous.co.uk/, you better check it the site has briliant articles.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 17, 2014


    The references you request can be found in the books I recommended that you read.


    Your comments are contradictory to the books of Dean Radin and other books recommended by IONS.

    I have been growing in the direction of finding Discussions tedious, due to the lack of participation by well informed IONS members.

    I’ll check in occasionally to see if well informed members of IONS begin participating in Discussions by critiquing your comments that are disparaging to the work of IONS. If they do, I may join them. If they do not, I can find peace by accepting what is and allowing Discussions to deteriorate further until it is under the complete domination of devotees to traditional science.

  • NoetPoet Jun 16, 2014

    Regarding the alleged “revolution” in science, I found the below comment on another forum (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philosophy/materialism-refuted-t45515-140.html). I really couldn’t have put it better myself:

    “It's like the New Age movement, a completely wrong label for that kind of thinking, it should have been called the Old Age movement. There's nothing new about believing that crystals hold magic powers, or that there are sacred places of mystical power, that angels watch over us, or that some people can heal just by waving their hands over you.”

  • NoetPoet Jun 16, 2014


    “Stating this in a more direct manner, a revolution is occurring in science; on one side of the revolution is traditional science and on the other side is IONS.”

    I’m sorry, but this is complete propaganda. The reality of your so-called “revolution” is that for the last 100 years or so parapsychologists have not been able to produce any credible evidence of paranormal abilities in humans, DESPITE their fervent desire to do so. Time and time again they have come back with either negative results or false positives, and many of those false positives occurred because parapsychologists were fooled by frauds, pranksters, or stage magicians.

    Over the decades parapsychologists have become increasingly desperate to prove that humans have superpowers: they have gone from trying to show that people can move macro-scale objects like pencils and plates with their minds, to looking for statistical “evidence” that people can will computerised Random Number Generators to generate numbers in a not-quite-random way; they have gone from trying to show that people can predict specific events well into the future, to looking for statistical ‘evidence’ that people can psychically “feel” events a fraction of a second before they occur. The parapsychologists have progressively made the goal posts wider and nearer, such that they are now standing within an inch of a goal line which is almost as wide as the playing field itself -and yet they STILL can’t kick a goal!

    At no point in this embarrassing history of increasingly desperate “investigations” have parapsychologists EVER proposed a credible theory about how any of these superhuman abilities are supposed to work. They have however appropriated and misinterpreted various theoretical ideas from “traditional” science in order to give themselves a veneer of credibility/sell books. Meanwhile “traditional” science has advanced in leaps and bounds: neurology has provided a whole world of USEFUL knowledge about how the brain works and how brain activity is connected to mental activity, and it shows abundant promise to continue doing so well into the future.

    “Traditional science holds that consciousness is created by each individual brain and is imprisoned in each brain. It holds that the consciousness in each brain is separate from or independent of the consciousness in all other brains. “

    You are Poisoning The Well here, although I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that an advocate of the paranormal would resort to logical fallacy. What exactly do you mean by “consciousness” anyway?

    “IONS holds that consciousness is not imprisoned within individual brains, but that it connects individuals and their brains.”

    How does it do that, and what evidence do you have? For the sake of integrity, your response should not involve any of the following:
    1) Resorting to logical fallacies
    2) Appropriating and distorting ideas from “traditional” science
    3) Appeals to statistical manipulation

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 16, 2014

    Please provide references if you are going to present a conjecture. (Or is this just personal opinion?)

    Spiritualism is not a fact and there is no evidence to support it. It is not a "known."

    Additionally, One still needs to provide and explanation for "unconsciousness" which makes up the majority of the mental activity.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 16, 2014


    You state “IONS and the Noetic sciences are "traditional science" focusing on consciousness.”

    This statement reflects a profound deficiency in knowledge of the “big picture”.

    Currently, traditional science is the dominant cultural paradigm. An intention of IONS is to unseat traditional science and replace it as the dominant cultural paradigm.

    Stating this in a more direct manner, a revolution is occurring in science; on one side of the revolution is traditional science and on the other side is IONS.

    A fundamental difference between these opposing sides of the revolution follows:

    Traditional science holds that consciousness is created by each individual brain and is imprisoned in each brain. It holds that the consciousness in each brain is separate from or independent of the consciousness in all other brains.

    IONS holds that consciousness is not imprisoned within individual brains, but that it connects individuals and their brains.

    If you watch the video “the interconnectedness of everything” that appears intermittently on the front page of the IONS website, the term “spirituality” is used on more than one occasion.

    Traditional science dismisses spirituality as nothing more than superstition. You yourself have taken that position in this forum.

    Those who are aware of this revolution and side with IONS view your dominance of this forum with your dogmatic religious devotion to traditional science with tolerance; others view it with compassion or amusement.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 15, 2014

    We don't need a second opinion to know what science is and isn't.

    Pure science: "A basic knowledge for the discovery of unknown laws based on well controlled experiments and deductions from demonstrated facts or truths."

    People here confuse "applied" science with "traditional" or pure science.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 15, 2014


    Dustproduction recently commented “IONS, and the Noetic sciences are "traditional science" focusing on consciousness.

    I would be very interested in your analysis of Dustproduction’s statement.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 12, 2014

    Re: "rational exchange"

    I am not going to play this game again.
    Others can read and reply.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 12, 2014


    You have posted three comments which do nothing except remove attention from my comment.

    We are discussing Alan Wallace in this topic and you quote negative comments about him from traditional scientists in another topic. This maneuver exemplifies of how you spam this forum and turn what could be a rational exchange into a convoluted mishmash.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 12, 2014

    Additionally, the statement, " But another way of knowing is subjective or internal, including gut feelings, intuition, and hunches—the way you know you love your children, for example, or experiences you have that cannot be explained or proven “rationally” but feel absolutely real." requires further examination.

    The scientific explanation for this type of "knowing" is that it is (unconscious) neural activity that takes place without (conscious) awareness.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 12, 2014

    IONS's website says:

    "The essential hypothesis underlying the noetic sciences is simply that consciousness matters. The question is when, how, and why does it matter?

    There are several ways we can know the world around us. Science focuses on external observation and is grounded in objective evaluation, measurement, and experimentation. This is useful in increasing objectivity and reducing bias and inaccuracy as we interpret what we observe. But another way of knowing is subjective or internal, including gut feelings, intuition, and hunches—the way you know you love your children, for example, or experiences you have that cannot be explained or proven “rationally” but feel absolutely real. This way of knowing is what we call noetic.

    From a purely materialist, mechanistic perspective, all subjective—noetic—experience arises from physical matter, and consciousness is simply a byproduct of brain and body processes."

    IONS, and the noetic sciences are "traditional science" focusing on consciousness.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 12, 2014

    Have you read this book?
    Are you stating that it offers, "comprehensive framework of a body/spirit interface?"

    My question was where is IONS's framework?

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 11, 2014


    My impressions are more legitimate than your beliefs in the sanctity of traditional science.

    I previously suggested that you read B. Alan Wallace’s book “The Taboo of Subjectivity”.

    This book drops a barrage of mortar shells on the headquarters of traditional science. If you read this book and continue with your dogmatic religious devotion to traditional science, I will recognize that you are truly a hopeless victim of a conditioned mind.

    You say, “Again, point out anyplace on INOS where there is a comprehensive framework of a body/spirit interface that even attempts to address the complexity of the problem."

    Wallace’s other book “Mind in the Balance” responds to your request. You can read reviews of this book by entering his name in the search engine of this website.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 11, 2014

    Re: "I have the impression...."

    Is this all we are discussing, "your impression" of things.
    Again, "Point out anyplace on INOS where there is a comprehensive framework of a body/spirit interface that even attempts to address the complexity of the problem."

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 11, 2014


    You say:

    “As I have stated before, it is not about BELIEF as much as it it about a cogent argument; a case that is believable.”

    Apparently you have the belief that a cogent argument can contribute to the illumination of the nature of reality.

    I have the impression that cogent arguments can do nothing to illuminate the nature of reality, all they do is provide entertainment in the amusement park of conceptual thought.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 11, 2014

    The only point that is relevant is: " At this point, no assumption should be made that the true nature of humanity is known."

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 11, 2014

    As I have stated, before it is not about BELIEF as much as it it about a cogent argument; a case that is believable.
    Scientific research examines the various aspects of this complex phenomena, spiritualism does not. Point out anyplace on INOS where there is a comprehensive framework of a body/spirit interface that even attempts to address the complexity of the problem.

    Modern spiritualism is merely borrowing the argument that there is some sort of transcendent element within us from religion.
    It has been clearly demonstrated that what is now referred to here as "consciousness" cannot be this element.

    Additionally, an argument that linguistically manipulates beliefs, such as, "It is known that consciousness is not isolated units contained in individual brains." seeks to establish a belief as an accepted truism. when it is not.

    What must be stated is; It is "believed" that consciousness is not isolated units contained in individual brains, (or "theorize") because there is so little evidence to

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 11, 2014

    Considering our many exchanges, my most direct response to you is to believe what you wish.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 10, 2014

    I read the research here at INOS, as well as everywhere else, and it contains words like "suggests" and "may."

    "Is consciousness generated by the activity of the brain or is it a fundamental property of the universe? The IONS research team has been studying this question for several years using various kinds of optical systems."

    It is remains theory, not a fact. That is ALL that is "known" So unless I'm missing something it is still and open question.

    The point that is relevant though is why does it matter which produces what, except that there is a BELIEF, which originates with spiritualism and religion that we are our consciousness. Clearly this is not the case. We have an awareness of a conscious subjective experience that is brain oriented. That's it.
    I have posted plenty of research that create a case for this. And yes it is mainstream science, the same science that IONS employs.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 10, 2014


    This question was previously answered, but apparently you missed it.

    With respect, I suggest that you read a few books that are responsive to the cornerstone of IONS science; i.e. consciousness is not isolated units contained in individual brains.

    Any of Dean Radin’s books would be appropriate, but rather than overburden you, I suggest only his first book “Entangled Minds”. Also, I suggest Stan Grof’s book “Beyond the Brain” and B. Alan Wallace’s book “The Taboo of Subjectivity”.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jun 10, 2014

    Re: It is known that consciousness is not isolated units contained in individual brains.

    Known how? As a theory?
    This question was asked previously and never answered.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Nov 24, 2013

    Excellent point ARK. This is pointing to complexity theory. See http://www.ted.com/talks/david_christian_big_history.html

    look around us. What we see around us is staggering complexity. Eric Beinhocker estimates that in New York City alone, there are some 10 billion SKUs, or distinct commodities, being traded. That's hundreds of times as many species as there are on Earth. And they're being traded by a species of almost seven billion individuals, who are linked by trade, travel, and the Internet into a global system of stupendous complexity.

    "So here's a great puzzle: in a universe ruled by the second law of thermodynamics, how is it possible to generate the sort of complexity I've described, the sort of complexity represented by you and me and the convention center? Well, the answer seems to be, the universe can create complexity, but with great difficulty. In pockets, there appear what my colleague, Fred Spier, calls "Goldilocks conditions" -- not too hot, not too cold, just right for the creation of complexity. And slightly more complex things appear. And where you have slightly more complex things, you can get slightly more complex things. And in this way, complexity builds stage by stage. Each stage is magical because it creates the impression of something utterly new appearing almost out of nowhere in the universe. We refer in big history to these moments as threshold moments. And at each threshold, the going gets tougher. The complex things get more fragile, more vulnerable; the Goldilocks conditions get more stringent, and it's more difficult to create complexity."

  • A.R.K. Nov 24, 2013

    In the simplest terms I can think of; We are a fractal condensate of a larger relationship. Like a raindrop inside of a cloud, that is now capable of reflecting and containing light (consciousness).

    We are intimately entangled with our environments, none of us would be here without the entire biome of the planet to support us. none of us would survive long without the entire biome of living creatures in our guts to digest things. They represent 9 out of 10 cells within the human body!

    We are also like an acorn of a larger oak tree, hidden in the soil of material creation, rained on by the Truth until we finally soften and sprout through and leave behind our protective ego shells...only then could we metabolize the light from the sun.

    We are like the spiritual trees of the universe, abodes for the birds of heaven and shelters for many a living thing......including each other!

  • Billgreenjeans Sep 03, 2013

    "At this point, no assumption should be made that the true nature of humanity is known."


  • mrmathew1963 Sep 01, 2013

    G'day Jim

    An intelligent form of creative vibrative energy, at times I will call it consciousness. Science is about reasoning in complexities & theology/spirituality about simplicities so scientifically we are what our five senses detect we are which is reasoned out in complex form however spirituality is more about what our five senses usually can't detect in it's simplicity. One or the other is obviously going to tell us something different however combined both are correct.

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Aug 30, 2013

    We are the Universe turning around to reflect upon itself! ;)

  • Anonymous Icon

    Otto Krog Aug 30, 2013

    I believe we are soulks on eternal travel through cosmos.

  • Jeanine Broderick Jan 24, 2013

    One thing that must be understood is that each interpreter of vibration, OBE, and other questioner who has received answers from non-physical is interpreting those answers with a human brain that has certain beliefs and will craft the answers in their own interpretation that match their beliefs.

    That is how all the dogma from the various religions got here. The answers came from the same place but they are blocks of thought that are interpreted by a human brain. They get answers that fit their time. The answers were never intended to be for all time. They are also very specific to the person asking the question.

    There are some common tenets across most religions and those have greater validity.

    One example of that is guidance that comes from within. I researched all the major religions after learning about, understanding and utilizing my own emotional guidance system and found that all of them speak of it in their texts even thought the leaders of the church may spin it differently the words in the book make more sense when viewed from the perspective of emotional guidance-especially the words in the Christian books.

    We are eternal beings of Love having a human experience.

    We each have a unique perspective and therefore we each experience the world differently - even when we are on the same sidewalk at the same moment or at the same table enjoying the same meal - we can only perceive through the perspective of the person we are Being in that moment. We can even perceive the identical experience differently if we change who we Be.

    Have you ever had an argument when you were upset and later you could not figure out why that "thing" upset you so much? You are trying to figure out why you saw it that way but you are now Being someone different and from the new perspective you cannot perceive it in the same way you perceived it from the other perspective.

    Our uniqueness adds great value to All That Is. We did not come to be identical copies - we came to be ourselves and to be creators from our unique perspectives knowing what is best for us (and only for us) via our guidance which is unique to our desires. Everyone else has their own guidance that is unique to their own desires. If we all listen to our guidance we will all move in the direction of our highest good.

    At its most basic component there is only one building block-Love. Everything, things we view as animate and inanimate, are comprised of the same basic building block at the basis.

    The question I do not know is whether we are a microcosm of an even greater universe (universe is the wrong word--but of something to which we are a small part? As our cells are to our bodies, as an atom is to a cell, as our planet is to the Universe, etc.

    ♡ Jeanine

  • Jeanine Broderick Jan 24, 2013

    "dig in" not "did in"

    ♡ Jeanine

  • Jeanine Broderick Jan 24, 2013

    Material is manifested spirit. The divide between spiritual and materialism is a false premise.

    I agree we are far more than our bodies--our bodies are vibrational interpretation devices designed to provide a spiritual being a human experience. - not unlike a carnival ride - they were intended to be fun.

    They also expand All That Is with every thought we think which why our being here adds so much value. Not necessity - expansion occurs from non-physical as well but less contrast means less expansion and there is nothing here on Earth if not contrast which causes us to determine preferences which is a creative act.

    The shifts occur individual by individual. Yes, more people are awakening to their true nature. This is the time of the awakening but we all won't wake up some a.m. and find the entire world is enlightened. In fact, those who have figured it out are going to do better than ever and our efforts to help those who haven't figured it out are intensifying but the thing is - if they are not asking - they are not ready to learn and our efforts are wasted. They did in and argue against things we know would benefit them until they are ready.

    I try to build bridges from various perspectives to a more enlightened one and have some success but there is no magic wand that will make everyone become enlightened all at once - regardless of the momentum.

    But cultural shifts will help. Right now there are still many cultural practices working against enlightenment. As we understand more - especially the impact of emotion on behavior, health, and cognitive ability we open doors that have been closed for beneficial shifts.

    For example, when people feel bad emotionally is when they do things society does not like but what do we do at the first sign someone has misbehaved? We punish them, we guilt them out, we make them feel worse - almost guaranteeing they will behave even worse in the future. When we recognize that undesired behaviors are signs that someone needs to feel better--not worse--and adjust our social norms to facilitate giving them knowledge and tools to feel better and maintain better feeling emotional stances we will be on our way to cultural shifts with real value to all.

    ♡ Jeanine

  • Anonymous Icon

    Otto Krog Nov 24, 2012

    Does anyone share the experience with the oneness in SpaceTime with me? I think that the only thing we have in common as spiritual beings is space and time. What do you think? www.crestroy.com

  • Anonymous Icon

    Otto Krog Oct 13, 2012

    I believe that antimatter is the subconscious mind and consciousness of living entities. I have made a video about it, explaining how I came to the conclusion putting it together with scientific observations during the last hundreds of years.

    You can watch it on YouTube on this link:


    Just copy paste the link.

    You can also follow me on my blog


  • Anonymous Icon

    BECHAMEL Feb 24, 2012

    1rooen said

    "Lao Tse Tao Te Ching

    The best soldier does not attack.
    The superior fighter succeeds without violence.
    The greatest conqueror wins without struggle."

    Cannot hold these observations without the perspective of a conquerer & a fighter. It speaks to vengeance , just as it seems to be counterintuitive, to such.

  • slowlygetnthar Feb 09, 2012

    We are electromagnetic signatures on the universe. This signature transcends body and is recognized by the universe as a whole within itself, unique unto itself, and resonant/cogent with the whole universe at the same time. Consciousness it the identity of that electromagnetic signature. When it occupies the body, we are human.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Xristos Feb 07, 2012

    I am a spiritual emanation choosing to live a healthy, happy, abundant, enlightened and fulfilling human life.

  • Anonymous Icon

    BECHAMEL Feb 03, 2012

    While it is true we are mammals, I hesitate to entirely lend myself to comparisons to other non human mammals. A conflict in these comparisons drawn between humans and animals which inevitably comes up, a tendency to over apply it. We humans assign human traits to animals while animals are attempting to no doubt view us as other animals.

    This came up in a discussion over a comedic skit including mention of how our pets would eat us to survive, under different circumstances. I would sooner starve than resort to any such action regarding my pet, no matter how extreme conditions became. I know of no carnivorous animal that objects to eating flesh on ethical or moral grounds. The only carnivorous pets I am aware of converting to vegetarian or vegan diets belong to humans whom institute this regimen. The omnivorous human has a conflict with consuming other sentient beings, depending upon the human and this can be extended to animals when humans are able to regulate their diets. That is probably not the sole difference, but highlights consciousness and awareness. The skit touched on forcing our pets to exist in captivity and submit to our will (something to consider when next telling the dog to shake paw, hands).

    So drawing correlations between animal and human behavior has limits.

    I was involved with a person whom was admittedly sadistic and took pleasure admittedly, in instigating discomfort in others and found it amusing to elicit discomfort. This was told outright to me. I am unaware of animals doing this excepting the neighbors housecat whom alternates time outdoors. We have seen the tracking of, toying with and attempted slaughter (we intervened) of various smaller creatures by that pet, which is well fed and not in need of supplementing diet. Some have suggested the term sport applies there. I do not know if cats can conceive of sport. It is more likely instinctual with humans applying the idea.

    Humans engage in sport, organizing teams inside of constructed arenas. It has been suggested that this merely supplants the natural animal instinct to engage in co operative and competitive hunting which has become industrialized and compartmentalized. I do not know about this as hunting is still practiced by man, all over.

    Some animals have probably got a concept of projecting thoughts. This occured to us the last time we had our pet stare us down, to remind us it was time to eat. Also when we last fed a stray animal. How could we know to do this, otherwise?

    The ability for discourse on it is probably one aspect of being human that distinguishes us.

  • 1rooen Dec 23, 2011

    George Ivanovich Gurdjieff
    Gurdjieff claimed that people cannot perceive reality in their current states because they do not possess consciousness but rather live in a state of a hypnotic "waking sleep."
    Gurdjieff taught that one must expend considerable effort to effect the transformation that leads to awakening. The effort that one puts into practice Gurdjieff referred to as The Work or Work on oneself. According to Gurdjieff, "...Working on oneself is not so difficult as wishing to work, taking the decision."Though Gurdjieff never put major significance on the term "Fourth Way" and never used the term in his writings, his pupil P.D. Ouspensky from 1924 to 1947 made the term and its use central to his own teaching of Gurdjieff's ideas. After Ouspensky's death, his students published a book titled The Fourth Way based on his lectures.

    Lao Tse Tao Te Ching
    The best soldier does not attack. The superior fighter succeeds without violence. The greatest conqueror wins without struggle. The most successful manager leads without dictating. This is intelligent non aggressiveness. This is called the mastery of men.
    Water is fluid, soft, and yielding. But water will wear away rock, which is rigid and cannot yield. As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard. This is another paradox: what is soft is strong.
    Prepare for the difficult while it is still easy. Deal with the big while it is still small. Difficult undertakings have always started with what's easy. Great undertakings always started with what is small. Therefore the sage never strives for the great, And thereby the great is achieved.
    Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them-that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.

    Walt Whitman
    After you have exhausted what there is in business, politics, conviviality, and so on - have found that none of these finally satisfy, or permanently wear - what remains? Nature remains.
    Now I see the secret of making the best person: it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth.
    Stranger, if you passing meet me and desire to speak to me, why should you not speak to me? And why should I not speak to you?

  • Saoirse Dec 21, 2011

    Hi Jim

    Sorry for the delayed response. The site ate my post and I didn't have time to recreate it immediately.

    I'm not sure that consciousness is nonlocal, but if ours is, I think everyone else's would be as well, because I don't see a lot of difference between us and everyone else. I was privileged to have over 15 years working with a team that included both human and nonhuman colleagues, where the whole team, human and nonhuman shared two different human languages and therefore communicated readily amongst ourselves. I think it probably gives me a little different perspective. It's funny, but everyone seems to be waiting for the day when we'll finally communicate with a nonhuman intelligence -- and yet, there are nonhuman intelligences right here on our own planet, and we ARE communicating with some of them. One of the most surreal moments of my life was a day when I was swamped with data to get finished up, and one of my nonhuman colleagues was insistently demanding my attention until I finally told him impatiently to PLEASE just WAIT and let me finish my work. It occurred to me a moment later how odd it was to think that two way communication with a totally different species had become so routine to me that for a moment I had treated it as an unwanted distraction!

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Dec 21, 2011

    Do you believe that the nonlocality of consciousness should have any influence relative to how we humans and other life forms are defined?

  • Saoirse Dec 20, 2011

    I don't think there's any question about the fact that we're biological beings just like everyone else. Human behavior, if nothing else makes it obvious. What human male wouldn't react with anger if he found his wife in bed with another man? Why? Because, like every other mammal, human males instinctively compete for breeding rights. Humans in overcrowded conditions show the same increased aggression that rats exhibit in similar conditions. Humans continually squabble over territory like any other mammal, on a grand scale in wars, but equally on an individual scale, posting "No Trespassing" signs to keep others from walking across their territory, and arguing furiously when a long-time neighbor builds a fence that encroaches 2 feet over the property line. And like other social mammals, humans have little tolerance for anyone perceived as being part of a separate social group. Even here, where people claim to be enlightened and spiritual, the peace and light extends only as far as the the boundary of social group, and those perceived as outsiders (i.e., anyone who comes from a different belief system or associates with those who do) are considered legitimate targets for attack. In fact, I was subjected to a pretty vicious verbal attack here, after a member learned that I've had social contact with a known member of a skeptics' organization. I wasn't the least bit surprised. Most social mammals will exhibit aggression toward someone who bears the scent of a rival social group, even if it's a familiar individual. It probably never occurred to the member who went after me that a person might socialize with people whose beliefs differ from their own. I'd been in contact with a rival social group -- bore its scent, so to speak, and the natural mammalian instinct was to attack and try to drive me off.

    All of these perfectly normal mammamlian behaviors make it difficult for me to believe that humans differ in substantial ways from other living beings. I think research on the other side of the equation is going a long way toward supporting this idea. More and more aspects that were once considered solely human traits are being documented in other species. They've been there all along. It's just that people were so caught up in humans being special and separate that no one bothered to look.

  • frequencytuner Dec 20, 2011

    Think of an atom for a moment. The tiny speck of matter in the center was once thought to be the singular core, but now we see it as well broken down further and further until the line between where it's core ends and the rest of existence begins fades away. One's level of perception determines the form energy assumes. Above the atomic level, for example, the atom itself is the core building block, and then the cell, the molecule etc. until we arrive at the level of perception where we believe the forms the energy assumes to be bodies and matter. It is like one single strum of one single string on a guitar. The level of perception is like the fret you press on the guitar to change the string's wave form.

    What we consider 'human' is like one single octave. What we consider energy centers or chakras or glands and organs or whatever you call them are like the single notes within that octave. What we consider everything else we see and experience on this octave is like harmonic resonance and it's resonance can be seen infinitely larger and smaller. Electrons and planets are harmonic. Our bodies and the earth are harmonic. What does this mean? Are we the guitar, the music or the musician? This is who we are.

  • M. Resat Guner Dec 18, 2011

    All things in our reality are our images, our representations. So we represent reality in our minds as much as our brains are capable of. Every kind of advancement in our reality depends on developing our concepts that is our IMAGES.
    We as humans can grasp reality as much as developed our imagination. We make some models with our imagination. So everything in our reality is image of the truth. Universe had programmed our senses as they are. Although our brain and our senses are so complicate I beleive they are so primitive. I beleive there are some much more develeped living forms in the Universe(s). Our senses and our brains are so limited. Consciousness is limitless but our brains and nerve systems can only represent so tiny part of the consciousness... In this physical reality advancement depends on development of our brains and nerve systems. So we must wait to evolve our bodies, brains and nerve systems to comprehend truth better. This development depends on our conscious efforts...

  • escape Dec 17, 2011

    Millions of years ago the frogs gathered in the pond under a clear and starry night. Looking at one another they croaked, “What are we?”
    Feel free to continue this story. It's an old one. Ribit, ribit...

  • Anonymous Icon

    Otto Krog Dec 14, 2011

    I am happy to give my one cent on this one.

    My view on antimatter is, that it is the mind and consciousness of all living entities.

    You are your own universe.

    Reality is where the minds (antimatter) meets the physical universe.

    Interested? Then read my philosophical multiverse theory.

    Google crestroyer theory, and find it instantly.


  • capt_infinity Aug 31, 2011

    I want everyone on this board to meet someone. This individual will say or do anything to get their way. This individual will always tell you what you want to hear, show you what you want to see, and promise you everything you have ever dreamed of. When you find yourself alone and in despair this individual will tell you to turn your back on life's problems and seek self gratification. You all have known this person since preschool. This individual is your own ego.

    The last person your ego wants to talk to is your spirit. Our spirits are in charge when we are children. As we mature our ego tells our spirits to go sit in the corner and keep their mouth shut. Every one of us walks the path through this life with a split personality. This is the reason why the studies of faith and the metaphysical are so complex. If we make something people desperately seek complex enough, our ego becomes the center of attention and others flock to it for counsel.

    There are those who people flock to for counsel like Jesus, Gandhi, Mandela and King who, due to conditions they encountered in the course of their life, find their ego sitting in the corner while their spirit guides them. The tragedy is it apparently takes suffering and isolation or divine intervention to put our egos in their place. Maybe the paradigm is starting to change. The evolutionary process demands it.

    Enter the scientist who sadly brings his or her ego with them. There is one huge difference. Scientists have to prove things. Other scientists eagerly await the opportunity to expand their egos disproving what other scientists say. Picture a room full of determined dowagers chanting in unison, "Where's the beef?" I like the approach. I helped men walk on the moon because of that approach. In my lifetime I have seen the eradication of polio and smallpox. I have seen our life expectancy increase twenty years and I have seen the technology of social networking bring down a corrupt government and I marvel that we can spend enough money to run a nation to tunnel out a mountain and build a device to look for a particle that may not exist.

    I end up asking myself why can't we spend half that amount to research spirit when we have as much if not more evidence of it's existence? Which will benefit mankind more, proving there is a Higgs Boson or proving we have a spirit? Over the centuries religions and philosophies have come and gone. Higgs some would say was divinely inspired in 1964 by three independent groups.

    Can anyone explain the dichotomy between science and the metaphysical? In the meantime individuals, such as myself, are experiencing phenomena that will lead to answers but there is little or no money to research us all. Science was never designed to work like triage. The greatest inventor that ever lived, Thomas Edison knew that. Leave no stone unturned including the other guys. I don't know he said that but I know he would agree

  • StanEllis_Author Aug 28, 2011

    Jim, many of your statements indicate you grasp the "awareness" of what we are nonlocally. Decartes said I think therefore I am and the new age realization is "I am aware that I think, therefore I am." You acknowledge the conceptual multidimensionality of humankind and the ladder of mental evolutuion. I applaud your open-mindedness and suggest that in the "spirit of scientific method," we need to continue hypothesizing and hypothesis testing through the "null hypothesis." In so doing we can rule-out and catalog data, premise, and hypothesis that have no cause & effect or catalytic relationship to what we really are nonlocally. I.E. since the null hypothesis serves to rule-in or rule-out information (data-premise-etc), said information need not necessairly be empiracal or objective. Just as physics, the science of reality on which other science is based, searches for the Unified Theory of Physics, so the ladder of mental evolution continues it's ascent toward realizing the multidimensionality you acknowledge. A given premise that has been scientifically replicated proves that matter is not created by matter, it is created by energy, and energy can not be destroyed (just changed). Now we throw in some quantum entanglement & coherrence and mix it with resonant frequencies, but we still can't arrive at "discovering" the scientific phenomena of what we are nonlocally. I suggest that we must continue to evolve toward a multidimensional and experiential level of understanding through continued scientific inquiry coupled with "Inductive evolutionary processes." The current state of the art in scientific research is for the most part "reductionist," in that we analyze parts of the whole in order to explain an understanding of it. It works until, another part is discovered or reanalyzed based on improved technology (for instance). For this old retired Behavioral Scientist, awakening to what I am nonlocally has rendered a dynamic state of receptivity from which a lucid knowing (clairecognizence) continues to expand (induction). I know what and who I am nonlocally. I am expanding awareness the energy and essance of my multidimensional being, the energy that cannot be destroyed, only changed.

  • capt_infinity Aug 27, 2011

    Before we can answer what are we, we really need to know how we are. Just what can we do with all this talk of all things metaphysical and faith no matter how many visions we see, guides we meet. or out of body trips we have made including the near death ones?

    Until we can create or observe all phenomena in a controlled environment it all may be nothing more than trips down an imaginary road no matter how real it is to anyone of us. I do not say this lightly. I am experiencing a phenomena no one can explain. My intuitive abilities are off the chart. I have seen heaven, I have seen the beginning of the universe and I have witnessed the portal our spirits use to ascend and it all exists in my mind and no where else unless I can find a way to take others on the journey with me.

    Is not the purpose of IONS an effort to take everyone along on the journey, to open the doors for those who choose not to believe or cannot understand and to give those of us who are full of inspiration, Intuition and initiative not only a platform but hard core research so we can share our journey's and back them up?

    I have been conducting extensive research on Thomas Edison, specifically any work he did on a machine to talk to spirits. I can now state I have enough evidence to prove he in fact did this research which initially was attempts to monitor life energy released from living cells as they died. There is a little known interview he conducted with New York times and in it is a message directed right at every scientist, engineer, physicist or man of many degrees that belongs to this board. I hope to God you all take the time to read it thoroughly. I have seen so many on line reports that quote it out of context and twist the meaning to suit their viewpoint. The article is at:

    I will remind all the scholars that are associated with this group that Edison turned his back on formal education and made his reasons obvious to anyone who would listen. These are different times but they are not that different.

  • Metaphysicist2 Aug 16, 2011

    Hello Jim Centi,
    It’s a common mistake to say that “no assumption should be made that the true nature of humanity is known.” The fact is that many of us have experienced conscious awareness of our soul’s consciousness in the heaven¹ world, thus, the “true nature” of the human soul/solar angel² is “known”, including the focal point of energy on the mental, or “cosmic gaseous” sphere that’s been seen & confirmed by those (noted below) who are fully clairvoyant, which has been called the “jewel in the lotus.” For the most part, it’s only agnostic scientists, and those who are inexperienced, who doubt the reality of clairvoyant observation of the heaven world as noted in the Enneads of Plotinus³, or A Treatise on Cosmic Fire by Alice Bailey.
    The fact is also that the human soul evolves through periodical rebirth, or reincarnation, eventually achieves relative perfection and, along the way, clairvoyance (the “ajna chakra”†), or the “eye of the white magician” eventually developes in the human aura.
    The fact is that Plotinus is just one among many highly-evolved souls in the spiritual hierarchy, such as Siddhartha, Krishna, Apollonius of Tyana, ect., whose testimonial has been ignored by modern scientist’s with big egos and no experience, but we’re entering the “age of enlightenment”, or Hopi 5th World‡, consequently, it’s just a matter of time before a scientific paradigm occurs, which recognizes the foregoing.

    ¹ http://www.qdeansloan.com/bio.htm
    ² http://www.light-weaver.com/fire/fire1260.html
    ³ http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/plotenn/enn400.htm
    † http://www.ajna.com/archives/articles/spirituality/ajna-chakra-3rd-eye.php
    ‡ http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi2.html

  • Anonymous Icon

    florentinnanicolae Aug 16, 2011

    I think we are Gods. Why? Because we have a soul , a spirit that will never die. We have a short life on the Earth as matterial beings, but we have the intelligence to chose between good and bad. We have this power and we are free to live how we want to.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Robert Johnston Jul 17, 2011

    Since I hold, Jim, that each individual has the right to choose what she/he really is I have answered your question as a personal affirmation of what I am and am not.

    1) I am a conscious microcosm of our infinite ageless conscious macrocosmic Source of all entities, societies, values, beliefs, energy, and matter;
    2) I am not any temporal feeling, thought, behavior, identity or possession, energy, or form of matter;
    3) I consciously transcend, own and include in my repertoire of choices all my temporal feelings, thoughts, identities, behaviors, possessions, and use of energy and matter as conscious options within integrally healthful parameters;
    4) I consciously intend to co-creatively manage the use of my options in a way mutually respectful and healthful to myself, other entities, our ecosystem, and our Source;
    5) I am consciously open to feedback from my body, dreams, other entities, ecosystem, and our Source on how well I am doing in fulfilling my intentions;
    6. I make conscious adjustments to my intentions and actions as I co-choose for self-management competence, integral health, strength, and full functioning for myself, society, and our ecosystem.

    Wishing all of us mutual empathy, understanding, integral health, and expanding consciousness

  • charliet Jul 17, 2011

    We are intelligent and all that intelligence encompasses. We are energy and can not be destroyed, our physical body can be discarded, but we remain. We are individuals, part of the species of human and its characteristics, part of our parents and their parents and so on. We are part of the all that is. We are unique, each and every one of us, but the same in many ways.
    We are here for many reasons depending upon our needs and the needs of others. We may be here to learn for ourselves or to experience something. We may be here to help another and play a role in their education. We may be here to perform a special act or "introduce a new discovery" as it may be time for the general population to to make a shift.
    I believe that 2012 (or there abouts) will bring a shift, I don't feel it will be catastrophic, I feel it will be an "aha" moment, an awakening, what it will show us I cannot say. What is to be will be, no matter what. We will still exist, the evidence for this is becoming overwhelming, energy never ends, it only changes.
    As Thoreau said, "simplify", enjoy the ride, observe, partake, believe. Even if you donot belive in God, Christ did teach one very important thing. Love.


  • Anonymous Icon

    derek32 Jul 07, 2011

    My guess is that we are probably a fragment of something much bigger and are a tool a means of learning growing and enjoyment for that bigger thing. Our two cents worth thrown into the pot. Maybe too that we always get to keep our individuality while at the same time growing in our understanding of our being that part of the whole.

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    taichirich Jun 14, 2011

    I believe we are an individualized expression of the One Mind, the One Intelligence, the One Life - which is referred to as God.

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    Laurie Jun 12, 2011

    What are we really? I really can't say, but I do know that although my body sleeps and my ego dreams, there is now always something within that is aware that this body sleeps and the ego dreams and this awareness is aware of that, witnesses it and know it is not that. Whatever that omni-present awareness is, is what I am really.

    I have these experiences but I don't know what they are, so I am grateful to have you express your thoughts Jim.

    You say, "...I feel a spiritually inspired affinity toward you." To which I say, and I to thee.

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    Jim Centi Jun 11, 2011

    Lauri, Beautifully worded.

    It may appear presumptuous of me to attempt to categorize such an experience, but I seem compelled to voice my thoughts. The experience could have been a lucid dream of enlightenment or nonlocal consciousness. It could also have been an experience of enlightenment or nonlocal consciousness resembling a dream. Although we have never met, I feel a spiritually inspired affinity toward you. ~~Jim

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    Laurie Jun 11, 2011

    My comment is not intellectual, but experential.

    On February 16, 2011, I had a dream experience where I was not a separate me, my name, story, or body.

    Out of nothingness, the question arose, "Who are you?"

    In thundering silence, my awareness answered, "I Am Existence."

    I was pure consciousness. The quality of existence is an enormous, exceptionally soft, tranquil energy field of tremendous power. In joyous surrender, my awareness melted back into the total peace of that truth, which I am not different from.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 09, 2011

    Although we have taken different paths to the top of the mountain, I believe we can agree that a sign at the top of the mountain reads “You Exist in Eternity; You are Infinite”.~~~Jim

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 09, 2011

    Annak, Thank you for your comments. You appear to be a sensitive person who has given this some thought. Perhaps we are looking at this from different perspectives.

    If we look up human being in the encyclopedia we will find that humans are defined as – “human being (Homo sapiens), a culture-bearing primate that is anatomically similar and related to the other great apes but is distinguished by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning etc.”

    This definition of what we are is the definition of “traditional” science. In addition to this definition, the traditional science position relative to consciousness is that consciousness is separately existing units which are imprisoned in each of our individual brains.

    What could be referred to as “new reality science” is based on a characteristic of quantum physics referred to as “nonlocality”; it has been said that nonlocality is quantum physics.

    For our purposes and succinctly stated….from the new reality perspective, consciousness is not imprisoned in our brain; consciousness is a characteristic or expression of the universe which exists both inside and outside of space and time. A common mistake is to view “outside space and time” as something far out in the universe of even beyond it. This is not really the case, as we become more familiar with this; we see that that outside space and time is an aspect of certain personal experiences.

    This dimension of the universe existing outside space and time is popularly equated with or referred to as “the nonlocality of consciousness”. At last count there are over fifty sites that can be accessed when we Google “nonlocality of consciousness”.

    Essentially, most discussions on this site describing psychic experiences or paranormal experiences are examples of the nonlocality of consciousness.

    It is generally accepted that consciousness is the fundamental nature of being human. So if consciousness is a characteristic or expression of the universe which exists in a dimension outside of space and time and our fundamental nature is consciousness….; we can consider that we are a multidimensional entity that can access the nonlocality of consciousness.

    I realize that in responding to you, I have taken some short cuts which could have been elaborated on more extensively. If there are areas that seem blurred because of my attempt to phrase this material in a succinct manner, please follow up with questions......Jim

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    wbilly3814 Jun 09, 2011

    the universe is known to be finite. in any case, it has a defined beginning, which in mathematical terms means it has a lower limit, which defines it as finite, even if the upper limit is unrealized. in any case, the true upper limit is the present, there is no detectable or measurable realization and thus no certainty of a limit beyond the present, in mathematical terms. thus, the universe is finite, limited by the beginning and the present. a trillion years in the future, the upper limit will still be the present, at that time. there can be no infinite future, regardless of how far you extend into the future, that instant is the upper limit.

    any number divided by infinity equals zero: n/infinity=0

    thus, only a thing which is infinite can truly exist. Since that thing you are most certain of is yourself, then you are certain that you exist. the mathematical requirement is that you are infinite.

    furthermore, if you loose your identity at any point in the future, such as 'melting' back into some greater consciousness, etc., then 'you' cease to exist, are finite, and you do not exist. the mathematical requirement is that you exist, as your unique self, for infinity, or you do not truly exist.

    the universe, by this mechanism, does not truly exist. and that is ok, because the founders of quantum theory determined that this universe is a construct of consciousness, and nothing more. that agrees also with the formal definitions within every Religion of man.
    There are only two possibilities, and no other possibility exists: 1) you are finite 2) you are infinite.

    There is no possibility of a numeric value which is neither of these 2 possibilities.

    you can not 'fit' an infinite thing, such as yourself, into a finite container, such as this universe. you are not here. and that is ok, because 'here' mathematically only exists as a construct.

    this leaves the only possibility that you, being infinite, can only exist within an infinite domain.

    I am a Physicist who has been in Neuroscience Research for over 20 years now. I wrote Eight Years Four Months, which describes these things in detail, within all of the formal definitions of Quantum Theory, in lay terms, and actually teaches the subject from the perspective of the original formal definitions by the founders of Quantum Physics.

    I offer this book FREE to any IONS member, just promise you’ll read the entire thing, and if you love or hate it, look it up on amazon and write a review.

    I can be reached at wbilly3814@yahoo.com put ‘Eight Years Four Months’ in the subject line and specify pdf, epub, or kindle.


    Dr wjb

  • Anonymous Icon

    annak Jun 09, 2011

    we can't know who we are, if we don't know how we are not.

    with each day, hour, minute experience (whatever the experience) we learn, we get close to, we choose how we are.

  • Fallensoul Jun 08, 2011

    Great. Glad that we cleared that up.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 07, 2011

    I agree with everything you say; it may be that you knew that before you posted it.

    My original post to this thread was to redefine the term “paradigm shift” and redefine what it means to be a human being. According to the popular encyclopedia definitions and the material reductionist’s perspective, essentially, we are a bipedal primate with an elongated thumb.

    My original post was also to redefine human beings as a multidimensional entity that had the capacity to exist in the nonlocal dimension or spiritual dimension beyond space and time.

    I also referred to the amusement park of conceptual thought. When we depart from the original post to this thread and are captivated by discussions of similarities between ideologies, the meaning of respect, I can or cannot accept your definition of this or that or an infinite number of other points of possible discussion, we are entertaining ourselves in the amusement park of conceptual thought. I am not accusing you: you should notice I am also vulnerable to the seduction of the amusement park.

    If possible, I would like to exit the amusement park and focus on the possibility of redefining the term “paradigm shift” and redefining what it means to be human.....Jim

  • Fallensoul Jun 07, 2011

    Hi Jim. Yes I acknowledge that it is difficult for some people to change their worldview and that some people arent looking for any answers outside their own worldview.

    It also seems we may be refering to different meanings of respect. I see it more as (1) "due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others" -- so I respect the fact that each and every conscious living entity has his personal free will to use or abuse and that means they can choose what they wish to believe. I respect that. It may not mean I have (2) a deep admiration for their views and I have a right to choose to follow my own personal worldview.

    In any case, even if we take respect to mean (2) admiration, there are many points of similarity between the various religious schools (ask our expert Ethan T :) and so if one chooses to focus on the points of similarity than one can indeed strengthen one's own worldview. I feel many people -- like the folk here at IONS are great examples of individuals who have an open-minded view of discovering reality -- appreciating the various spiritual paths. Ofcourse there are those who are close minded or are satisfied with their level of consciousness and trying to help them expand their consciousness may not be so well received -- ok we can respect them from a distance and focus on ourselves and share with those who are open to these ideas.

    Having said that on the higher level, one may realize that beyond the differentiation of the various religions or ism's, each one of us are individual conscious entities and on this platform of spirit we are all equal. So this comes back to our thread topic. If we have a clear idea of who we really are, then alot of the evils of this world / of religions / of science would be solved.

    Therefore "to be the change" a sincere seeker of the truth tries to always take this broader view that on the spiritual level we are equal and that means that he/she doesnt focus too much on the material evils of religion/politics/science etc, but recognizes that the material identification of I a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, black, white, thin, fat are various coverings of the pure spiritual being. Due to the nature of this material world these coverings are acting on us very strongly and it causes us misidentification with matter, which is root of all our problems. So the idea is to hate the sin, not the sinner. These coverings dirty the consciousness, so the focus then is to purify the consciousness first on oneself and then by our realization of the benefits of coming towards pure consciousness we may use our words, thoughts and deeds to inspire others by our own example to use their free will in to follow in the same direction.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 06, 2011

    I will attempt to resolve this problem between us, if we are willing to go through the agony of scrutinizing what I have said and what you object to.

    I said “When looking at the world today, it appears difficult to have individuals look to another religion for answers or for that matter show any degree of respect for other religions.

    You said “I do however strongly challenge the idea that one cannot respect other religions or gain answers from other religious/spiritual paths.

    Personally, I found it difficult to turn my back on my Christian heritage and seek what I considered to be a higher form of truth in Eastern Religions; I did so about forty years ago, because of a personal experience. So I agree with you in the sense that an individual can respect other religions, gain answers from other religious/spiritual paths and even experience a conversion from one religious/spiritual tradition to another.

    Looking at my words contained in the second paragraph above I said “it appears difficult to have individuals etc.” Based on my personal experience of attempting to convey Eastern spiritual traditions to born again Christians, Catholics or atheists, whether in my own family or among a circle of acquaintances, it has not only been difficult, it has been impossible.

    On a broader scale, it seems that people are willing to kill, and die for their religious beliefs. Going back to the middle ages when, during the inquisition, many thousands were burned at the stake for not conforming to Catholic doctrine and many times that imprisoned, on through the slaughtering of six million Jews in Germany, to the present day when the world is being threatened by religious dogmatism, it appears to be difficult to have people seek answers from other religious/spiritual traditions or show any degree of respect toward them.

    So from all this I would conclude that you are right in that people can show respect for other religions/spiritual traditions and even convert to another religious paradigm. I must also conclude that it is difficult to have individuals look to another religion for answers or for that matter show any degree of respect for other religions.

    From the broadest possible perspective, it seems that we are both right.

  • Fallensoul Jun 05, 2011

    Really sorry Jim. I humbly apologize if you felt offended. I certainly have no intention of "chastising" you or anyone personally or trying to talk down to people. I do however strongly challenge the idea that one cannot respect other religions or gain answers from other religious/spiritual paths. So perhaps my understanding of your statements are flawed. Maybe someone else could comment. Part of argumentation means that one puts forward his views with a strong case. It's not meant to be taken as a personal attack.

    In any case I respect your views and will try to be more gentlemanly, so that people do not misunderstand me.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi Jun 05, 2011

    I do not understand the purpose your June 5th comments to me, expressed in such a condescending manner. I can only assume that you are referring to the following paragraph:

    “Although my background goes back many years to Theosophy, which I believe is birthed in the ancient Vedic tradition; in my opinion, there may be a problem in that the Vedic Tradition may appear as simply another religion to many. When looking at the world today, it appears difficult to have individuals look to another religion for answers or for that matter show any degree of respect for other religions.”

    It seems that you interpreted these words to mean that I personally view the Vedic Tradition as just another religion and this caused you to chastise me for an illusion existing only in your mind.

    Please carefully review the paragraph in quotations above and determine if your comments directed toward me in such a condescending manner are justified….Jim

  • Fallensoul Jun 05, 2011

    Jess: Yes the vedic conception holds the view that higher dimensions very much exist and the highest of which is pure consiousness. There is knowledge about how to access those dimensions.

    Jim: Glad that you liked Micheal.

    Jim, rather than than label the ideas as religous or scientific, challenge the ideas. The vedic ideas i share is not sectarian or religious. It is providing ideas about the potentials and capacities of consciousness at various levels of our being. My understanding is that this is in line with what IONS is interested in. Religion is a question of faith, you may choose to believe this or not, but vedic science is not a question of belief. Through the process of yoga, one can realize this knowledge scientifically. So if one thinks its a religion, that is a due to the perceivers lack of knowledge -- in fact it means that they are not very serious in their search for truth and beauty.

    Besides that it is only in recent times that the scientist has become narrowed into an empirical worldview, the great scientists of the past, accepted that philosophy and religion were very much part of science and were great tools for understanding reality which is beyond empirical methods. Science means understanding everything in its entirety. If that leads to a Super consciousness that is connected with everything, or God if you like, then one has to address the inquiries that come together with that. And if sources of knowledge like the Vedas are already presenting the same conclusions that science is now leading up to, then one would be very interested to know what the conclusions of the Vedic knowledge are. So to say that one can't gain any appreciation for religious teachings is a rather atheistic idea. A sincere seeker of the truth accepts gold even from an place that he may falsely consider dirty. Focus on the gold Jimmy.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 27, 2011

    Hi Jess
    I recognize that my concepts of dimensions are divergent from those of traditional science [materialism]. The paradigm of traditional science is based on the premise is that the only reality is physical reality. Even when nonlocality appeared on the scene, traditional science continued to hold to the position that consciousness is confined within the brain.

    I do not agree with the materialistic concept of nonlocality. When I conceptualized nonlocality, it seemed quite natural to view it as an expression of reality existing independent or separate from physical reality. This is why many authors speak of the nonlocality of consciousness.

    Because I feel no particular responsibility or obligation to adjust my perceptions of reality to accommodate those with whom I disagree, I began to view nonlocality as a dimension separate from physical reality. A system of thought began to form based on the context of two dimensions of reality that are available for our experience. A small sample of that system of thought follows:

    To the degree that we gain a sense of self from our local experience or physical body, we believe and therefore experience that we are a separate self. That is to say we experience that we exist separate from or independent of others and the universe. This can be referred to as the illusion of a separate self.

    To the degree that we gain a sense of self from our nonlocal existence or the experience of consciousness, we begin to experience that we are connected to the universe and all forms of life. In my opinion, this is the essence of true spirituality.

    I realize that I have not have sufficiently elaborated on the implications of the multidimensional self, but rather than have this post develop into a seminar, I will end by saying that we are much more than a bipedal primate with an elongated thumb.……Jim

  • Jesse Pikorz May 26, 2011

    Jim Centi, you mention one idea of how one is "a multidimensional entity that is becoming aware of its multidimensionality."

    I like to imagine how a 3-D animal with a 2-D brain might stub its 3-D toe against a 3-D wall. What does it feel? If its perceptive faculties can only process information in 2-D, then the toe stubbing might well be perceived, but it will be perceived in a very magical and bizarre way. There might be no way for the animal to make sense out of what it's feeling.

    I often wonder if our physical, material selves are composed in three dimensions, but certain perceptive faculties exist in higher dimensions. From birth in this culture we are trained to perceive only in three dimensions. Thus, when we perceive something in higher dimensions, the perception is fuzzy at best. Dream states, certain ESP phenomena, or even experience after death might be perceptions of our higher dimensional selves that we are learning to process with our poorly trained beings.

    (Of course, I am using the concept of mathematical spatial dimensions loosely. They make a good visual analogy. The word "dimension," could mean something different altogether.)


  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 23, 2011

    Thank you for referring us to Michael Cremo, I appreciated his perspective of a multidimensional cosmos and how we are a function of that multidimensionality.

    Although my background goes back many years to Theosophy, which I believe is birthed in the ancient Vedic tradition; in my opinion, there may be a problem in that the Vedic Tradition may appear as simply another religion to many. When looking at the world today, it appears difficult to have individuals look to another religion for answers or for that matter show any degree of respect for other religions.

    As you are probably aware there is another area of this website where professionals discuss a variety of topics; I’m referring to the Blogs and commentary to blogs. I believe there would be value finding some common ground between what is now occurring in Discussions and what appears to be an elitist form of dialogue in the Blogs and commentary to blogs.

    It wouldn’t be necessary to abandon Blogs and commentary; simply upgrade the Discussions forum a bit by having professionals occasionally post in Discussions using language that is receptive to us common folk. In my opinion, they should keep their posts within the context of the transformation of humanity through an appreciation of our multidimensionality. It would be a plus if this can be done without expressing allegiance to any particular tradition or religion. I believe this could boost the public's appreciation of IONS.

    Of course this is only my opinion and perhaps I am asking too much. It may be helpful if others would comment on this or provide other ideas and suggestions. Is it a violation of some protocol if individual IONS staff members occasionally post comments in Discussions? The way I have seen you bounce from one expression of mentality to another, “I think Susan is an illusion!” I have considered that you may be an undercover staff member. (;-)

  • Fallensoul May 23, 2011

    Yes, this is an important question. Before we can ask the question, where did we come from, we should be asking what exactly are we. The vedic wisdom describes the human being as a combination of matter, mind and pure consciousness or spirit. Micheal Cremo, a vedic scientist speaks about this here, together with scientific evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3PrtKFoJlU - very relevant to this topic.

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