Discussions

I don't know why the mind is not considered a sense. I have experienced in myself, which is not scientifically valid, that I experience sensations in my body when a certain type of thought touches the mind. If a thought is some'thing' and the mind is some'thing' then isn't that another sense door?
You've got things touching each other even if they are waves or energy fields of some kind. They generate sensations in the body, the brain automaticaly forms them into perceptions which it then presents to the mind and then can be included or excluded in conceptualisation as part of more complex mental activity. Just llike the other sense doors. Whether it be the touch of a photon on your retina, or the touch of a chemical on your tongue or nose, or the touch of air on your skin or the touch of sound, which is also air on your eardrum. It seems like it's all touch based in a way. So do we have at least six senses then?

I observe that the physical universe is made of opposites and the range or spectrum or cycle going between them. But some of these physical properties are not self existant. Like the property "dark" for example is not self existant and requires the absense of it's opposite to exist. The same goes for 'cold'. Does that mean that all properties are paired? And therefore that the other must exist somewhere even though it can't be perceived easily? We know for example the opposite of 'soft' is 'hard ' and the opposite character of 'moving' would be 'still'. If somewhere in the earths weather system it is 'dry' does that automatically mean that somewhere else it must be 'wet'. Would this form something that could be termed a 'law of consistancy'. That the opposite must exist somewhere.

I was trying to prove by reason the concept of God and the afterlife because I'm more a philosopher than a scientist.

So is this decent logic? By this idea of consistency of opposites we can see that all of nature runs on cycles. The seasons for example, the tides and the life and deaths of creatures including ourselves. So in other words the cycles are characterized by the property 'temporary'. So if by my way of thinking everything has an opposite where is the opposite of 'temporary' then? Where is the eternal? Or what is eternal?

So if the scientists say that the universe began about 15billion years ago in a big bang , that's the beginning of a cycle and all cycles in the temporal universe are temporary. So technically there must come a time when it ends though it may be considered virtually eternal but technically it's not eternal. So if this physical universe is an example of a temporary universe it's opposite kind must exist somewhere. An eternal universe must exist somewhere to furnish this 'law of consistency' idea that I'm using. And maybe the laws of physics inside this eternal universe would be opposite also or at least very different.

It's this question of where is this eternal universe?

Recollection is a critical component of consciousness and personal identity: recollection makes it possible to compare present stimuli with past stimuli and thus form a moving conscious picture of reality, much like a film reel can create the illusion of a moving picture. It also allows a person to accumulate information which feeds back into their sense of self. But even if there is no recollection, that doesn't mean that the person isn't aware. A person can be aware when they are drunk and partying, even if their ability to remember it is disrupted. So although recollection is vital to a coherent consciousness, it is not a pre-condition of awareness itself.

A thought experiment might be helpful: think of ordinary waking consciousness. What features does it have? Clearly there is short term and long term memory, stimuli to the senses, thought and cognition (including abstract about the future), habits of perception (what you choose to acknowledge and how you choose to acknowledge it), and there is a meta-awareness of one's self which is informed by these other features. Now start take these features away one-by-one. What are you left with? By my reckoning you are left with pure bare awareness, utterly devoid of features like a sky devoid of clouds.

Because it is utterly devoid of features, pure awareness is itself a void. Is this so bad? Perhaps our confusion about the mystery of consciousness arises precisely because consciousness itself (i.e. pure awareness) is the primal voidness. But it is this very voidness which makes consciousness so marvellous and useful, much as an empty jar or an empty room are useful because they can be filled with various items.

So if pure awareness is of the primal void, and all the other factors of mind are conditioned phenomena working together to create a "motion picture" illusion of personal consciousness, is there any room for life after death? Possibly. What we can fairly say is that each mind is like an agglomeration of complexity and differentiation which wells up from the underlying voidness "fabric" of reality/ the cosmos. When the body dies, that agglomeration of complexity and differentiation collapses and merges back into the fabric of the cosmos. It's like a carpeted floor with lumps in the carpet: each mind is a lump, and physical death is like a foot stepping on that lump. But stepping on one lump can cause another lump to emerge in another part of the carpet. Similarly perhaps there is a kind of momentum or information burst realised by a mind at physical death into the underlying fabric of the cosmos, which in turn conditions the arising of a new mind elsewhere in the cosmos. This process could be interpreted as "rebirth" or "reincarnation" of a mind which is ultimately made from voidness anyway.

So when thinking about how/if there is life after death, remember that "it's not actually about you!" It is about a natural process of which your small "I" ego-consciousness is but one part.

What a treasure trove. Thanks everyone, lots of links to explore.

I had two books arrive. One is 'Origin of the Soul' by Walter Semkiw and just on page 100 there is an image of a man named Freidrich Juergensen who during his life was a pioneer of ITC 'Instrumental Transcommunication' I guess that's related to EVP, Electronic Voice Phenomena. Anyhow at his own funeral he is said to have imprinted his own image on the TV of his friend Claude Thorlin. The work of Semkiw seems to say that ones appearance stays very similar from life to life and that experiences and skills stay intact inside the soul and build on each other. The other is 'The End of Suffering' by Russell Targ and J.J Hurtak Ph.D.

I have been thru mental illness, was labelled schizophrenic. What helped me was not drugs but nutrition and the right attitude to life. We can use our mind to make life meaningful or make it meaningless, I know where nihilism can go- to the abyss of depression and mental illness. It's helps to look at everything as if it is a miracle, not just life but breathing, sunshine, food, water, family, friends, flowers and why stop there? Every particle and non particle of existence is a miracle. I'll finish with a quote from Gangaji which I saw in 'The End of Suffering'.

"The meaning of your life depends on which ideas you permit to use you. Who you think you are determines where you put your attention. Where you direct your attention creates your life experiences, and brings a new course of events into being. Where you habitually put your attention is what you worship. What do you worship in this mindstream called your life?"

mathew: one has to be careful with the wording. theres an idea that to become spiritually enlightened one has to give up all desires and remove the ego completely. that kind of teaching is dangerous in the sense that its not really possible to be desireless. Niether can one give up his sense of individuality. We remain individuals eternally. This is the actual teachings of the Vedanta. The difference is that we are minute individuals and the Supreme Being is supremely individual. Whereas we only have conscious awareness of ourselves, the supreme being has conscious awareness of everythings and everyone. Some people have the experience of connecting to the Supreme being and experiencing this oneness in vision, but that does mean that one has become the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is always the Supreme Being and not subject to the being under the illusions we are under. So it is not a fact that we have to become ego-less. We have both desires and ego, but in our current situation those desires and ego is misdirected and wrongly influenced into thinking that we are material beings. This wrong conception is what needs to be removed, not the pure ego and desires. So the idea is to change the desires, not nullify them. Change the consciousness/ego not nullify it.

Pure ego and desires exist, and so do our individuality. So does our spiritual form. That is the beauty of reality, we have our limited free will. We have to ability to love one another and on an ultimate scale, love the Supreme Being. So in the oneness theory, the teaching is misunderstood, that everyone is one and we are all simply God trying to express ourselves in different ways. Everything is Brahman, all is one. This is a popular spiritual idea being propogated by various "spiritual" teachers and they do this in the name of the Vedic knowledge. But the real teaching is that we are part of the Brahman or Supreme Being, we are equal is quality but we are not on the same level. We arent God in full, we're a spark of a fire vs the fire. Thats the difference.

The other idea that we are manifest only here and in the spirit world we dont have any form, therefore we cant enjoy. That is also another ignorance. The spiritual reality is the source of this reality. How can it be that something is lacking in the source? We have forms here, so why wouldnt we have forms there? We have spiritual forms in the spiritual world and experience and enjoyment is far superior than this temporary place of ignorance.

G’day Fallensoul

To me Fallensoul this physical life isn’t our natural life or state in actual fact it’s not living at all it’s just experiencing being through the ego self for without the ego we wouldn’t exist. You take away the ego you then have no desire to live or evolve as a species but the ego isn’t who we really are, you take away the ego & you are a lot closer to your truer self so dying from this physical reality to me is living as the being I am not what I perceive I am.

Love
Mathew

In her paper, "EMOTIONAL SENSE: The Emotional Sense: A Moral Compass," Katherine T Peil puts forward some interesting thoughts.
Her writing is dense and well referenced.
Since you did not respond to any of my points I am wondering why it is I am supposed to read about emotion guidance. Have you read and comprehended this paper?

Originally, you said, "To answer your question"

I believe we are eternal beings.
I do not, however, believe.......
I have looked at the science and compared it to my newer beliefs.....

My point is that you are only writing about you, and your subjective experiences and beliefs.
This is not a discussion, it is a narrative.

@ Dustproduction

Look at the research regarding emotional guidance here:

www.emotionalsentience.com

I have referenced it in other posts here and did not want to be overly repetitive.

Also, the post by FallenSoul asks for "scientific research, personal experiences, and ancient wisdom" so I do not understand why you are critiquing my post for not including the scientific basis of the emotional guidance feedback system. Is the original post wrong to ask for personal experience and ancient wisdom? I am new here so if I am missing something about these discussions I would appreciate beneficial feedback. Thanks.

Thanks for asking. No, my world view is not based on Swedenborg. Swedenborg's work was something I stumbled on long after my world view was developed. The documentation he created of his experiences--including science that was not know for centuries after his death--is evidence that he was able to access information on a different realm. That is much more believable to me than that he was so brilliant he was able to leap centuries ahead in scientific knowledge using the scientific method and it took the rest of the world centuries to catch up - even with access to his 19 volumes of work. His story includes interactions with the Queen's deceased brother. To me his credibility on that is strong, #1 because the Queen verified he was able to communicate to her things he said he learned from her brother (after his death) that only the Queen and the brother were privy to, and #2 His documentation of some scientific things has proven to have been accurate as science caught up with it.

He is a piece of the puzzle. I don't need proof of life after death for my personal experience but when someone says they want evidence he is somewhere to point and ask, "How else would you explain the work he left behind?" While it is not proof--it can open the door a bit to at least have an open mind about the subject.
♡ Jeanine

This was posted at another discussion regarding NDE

The title of Alexander's book is "Proof of Heaven," a rather assuming title when he cannot answer my simple question. Alexander tells us he believes, "The purest and most extraordinary part of his journey happened deep in coma." How can he possibly claim to recall this. He was in a coma, "his earliest recollections were strange and involved no recall of his life before coma. Like a newborn, he had no functioning language, nor knowledge of this world, our culture, or the loved ones surrounding him."

The fact remains that we do understand how long term memory is produced from short term memory. What I am not seeing here is a discuss about brain processes. Sam Harris's point is that the brain did not stop functioning, and this is accurate, leaving the opening for further explanation and doubt about Alexander's story. Other neuroscientists, such as Daniel Kahneman tells us that the unconscious mind plays a bigger role than we imagine. The focus here is the conscious mind, and that may be the error. Much of what flows into the consciousness starts in the unconscious. (see Benjamin Libet) I'll give Alexander's book a look just to see his appendix discussions. I did heard him interviewed and he was not informative or convincing. He has no proof, just a good story to tell. The bottom line is that Alexander's asking us to BELIEVE in what he cannot explain, and religion already does that.

Jeanine,
We cannot have a discussion about your personal subjective experience and beliefs (I gather they involve Swedenborg), so they fall into the realm of conjecture. You write, " I also believe that our societies train us away from much of the innate wisdom we are born with (to the detriment of individuals and society)." Haven't you yourself fallen into this same trap by employing language, oriented in a way, that externalizes your experience of the world by repeatedly claiming what "is?" For example saying the day "is" nice speaks not about the day, but your experience or perception of the day. You repeatedly use "is" in the this manner.

IONS seeks to document experiences scientifically. Before you can make statements such as " Emotions are guidance (communication) telling us to adjust course," or the conflicting statement, "negative emotion creates static," we need to see the research you are basing these statement on, or they are little more than belief. i.e. for every drop of rain a flowers grows

Regarding marcusantonio91 comments:

Drinking- understand your brain is part of your body and impacted by alcohol. Your brain is not what most believe it to be. It is actually a sending and receiving transmission tower and alcohol impedes the transmission.

Likewise, negative emotion creates static (and neural pathways that do not serve our well-being). That static interferes with the receiving of the well-being that is flowing to each of us. It is our own thoughts (no, I am not blaming the victim - I am empowering all of mankind. Any so-called "victims" did not know this information - if they had they would not be called "victims" because they would have made different choices.)
Each cell can have the flow of well-being to it decreased via negative emotion. The negative emotions decrease the flow of well-being because the well-being flows from Love (what our Source is - forget about an angry,, vengeful and judgmental God - that is man creating God in man's image).

Emotions like Love, Awe, Interest, Passion, Excitement, Enthusiasm allow the flow fully while emotions that feel worse than those pinch off some of the well-being. Ever feel like you are on fire (in a good way) with a new idea - energized and excited? That is you allowing the fuller connection. When you feel sluggish you are pinching off some of the well-being. It is still flowing but you are not allowing yourself to receive it.

All of this can be easily verified with your own thoughts if you pay attention to how you feel and especially when you begin making a conscious effort to adjust your perception to better feeling thoughts.

Mental illness is often caused by complex negative emotions. Emotions are guidance (communication) telling us to adjust course but complex negative emotions are constructs of man and may not have a path that leads to feeling better. They are bogus from the big picture but when one has been trained to believe the underlying false premises they can get caught in an inescapable loop.

Some things--like voices--if the person is feeling negative the voices will match that vibration. Those who are sensitive and raised where such a trait is frowned upon or feared are far more likely to develop what we call "mental illness" because the sensitivity does not diminish but they become tuned to worse feeling vibrations so that is what they hear. Those who are more positively focused are tuned in a different way and are often called intuitive. I could write a book on this but this is the basic gist of the explanation.

@ Dustproduction

To answer your question:
I believe we are eternal beings. That we did not arrive in our infant bodies as brand new entities and that we will have many more experiences, both in physical bodies and while in non-physical. I also believe that our societies train us away from much of the innate wisdom we are born with (to the detriment of individuals and society).

I do not, however, believe in Karma anymore. I did, for most of my life. But my new understanding is from a much broader, eternal perspective, and I understand that who and what we are at our core (each and every one of us) is Love. Any deviation from that is from beliefs, expectations, and experiences we picked up during our physical life time - this time. When the broader perspective is taken the judgments we make from the more limited perspective no longer make sense. There is much science does not yet know. In some areas we are moving in the right direction but there are many who have no idea where the real answers lie and their paths divert from the one where the answers are and sometimes delay the answers with their attention to false premises.

I have looked at the science and compared it to my newer beliefs and find it is consistent with known science and answers many of the questions when a finding says, "We observed this but don't know why" my spiritual beliefs know the answer. I have also looked at the core tenets of what I believe and found them in the texts (if not the interpretations) of all the major religions and in the words of the most brilliant thinkers throughout recorded history.

While I can't prove to another that death is just a transition I know it and live my life accordingly. I can also help another gain the knowledge that I have if they will approach it with an open mind. My definition of an open mind is not "believe what I tell you without proof." It is, "Be willing to consider the possibility and explore the ideas in your own experience."

If you are interested in details of the path I followed to gain this degree of certainty I am happy to share. Contact me if you are interested. I do not proselytize and posting detail here would feel as if I was.

I explored a variety of religious and spiritual beliefs before finding one that not only answered all my unanswered questions but that provided a foundation that makes all of life make sense.

Death is not less. When you dream you can see, taste, smell, feel, and hear as well as experience emotions yet your eyes are closed and the sensory experiences you experience are not happening in your current reality. Have you ever wondered how you see without eyes?

Our bodies are like a car in many respects. Our bodies are not us. They are vibration interpretation devices designed to give us (spiritual being) an experience of being human. We are more specific in our interpretation of vibration using our bodies but there are many practices and situations that show us that we are far more than our bodies. They include shamanistic experiences, meditation, OBE's, NDE's, and other practices. There is plenty of evidence that we have access to greater information, intelligence and experiences outside our bodies than we do in them. Swedenborg created many journals describing what he learned and experienced during his OBE's -- much of which is verifiable by science now but was not verifiable until recently although he was accepted due to his demonstration to his Queen that he was able to accurately relay information from her "dead" brother that only her brother would have known. I think it is great that the Queen was open-minded enough to test him instead of burning him as a witch or some other response that was not uncommon throughout the ages.

I have had an OBE but not commonly although I have friends who have developed the ability to a greater degree and have even spoken of how much more satisfying intertwining with another is while out of the body. That one sort of blows me away--that what many see as one of life's ultimate pleasures could be more OBE.

What I do experience, often, is communication with loved ones who are no longer in their bodies.
♡ Jeanine

re: "Most of us here have come to appreciate that consciousness survives the death of the body."

How have others come to appreciate this?

One more reference for you, well, actually many reference.

http://www.near-death.com/

If you meditate you will find that life after death, so to speak. In meditation the conscious self, the personal self vanishes but there is not complete extinction. What is left is universal self. It is this that is everlasting. It surpasses death because it is unborn and undying. We are aware of this "higher self" or what Krishna calls atman (as opposed to jiva -the personal self) in daily life. We are aware that we are aware. This is being aware of being aware is not the one entity but yet it is! The universe is nothing but pure awareness -the universal or impersonal self. The personal /conscious self has come into being owing to experience of the physical reality. It is nothing other than a collection of ideas that are associated with emotional responses (ie body processes). It is an ephemeral being and seems conscious of its own when really it is the universal awareness that has become localized.. sort of. If at the time of death you can enter the state of full awareness, forsaking the personal self, then you enter Nirvana or Grace or whatever else you want to call Eternal Life. It is all too hard to try and explain in words. Words and language and the dialogue that takes place between personal selves is all very limited and cannot describe the mystical experience. Meditate and reach that experience. Let go of the thoughts so that there is no more reactivity in the body. Then the personal self i.e., the conscious familiar self slowly vanishes (sometimes abruptly and the more experience you gain the more it can happen abruptly). You can do this by means of the Observing self or the higher self. Stay in the observing state (pure awareness) and forsake the personal state (conscious/ personalized awareness). Meditate.. meditate.. meditate forsaking all.. just meditate. Once the mystical experience.. enlightenment is attained (you have it already really so it is not really “attained”), then all fear of death vanishes.

oO0o0Oo: Right.

oO0o0Oo: Thank you for sharing. Pretty heavy karma, but karma is not eternal, it can be purified very quickly through spiritual practices like bhakti yoga or devotion to God as described in the Bhagavad Gita.

Boblight

My eldest daughter passed way this Spring, age 33, no warning, just gone. Yes it is hard, what gives me (us) comfort is the communications I have with her.These are real, not imaginary as many will say. What you are experiencing is real, Daniel is communicating with you, he is alright, your son will some day move on and you must let him, he will never be really gone, your spirits will always be connected.
Does the name "Godiva" as in Lady Godiva mean anything to you, or have you heard it spoken or seen it written lately? Let me know and I will reply to your answer.

My son Daniel passed away at age 19, about a year ago.. This has been the most difficult experience I have ever gone through.. There have been a few times I believe Daniel has visited from beyond this world.. I have a message that both my wife and I believe is from Daniel on our answering machine which was recorded a few months after he died.. There have been dreams, visits to professional mediums and my daily practice of (Semi) automatic writing during the evenings.. A few evenings ago Daniel communicated to me at 5:06PM about what happens to a soul when they leave the body( die).. He explained it as the soul leaving through a wormhole.. He than told me to read this again after we come back from the Compassionate Friends Support Group( 7:30-9:00) The last Wednesday of the month we meet .. So I got back at 9;45 and turned on my favorite show on the History Ch, Ancient Aliens.. At 9:56PM the show started talking about after death experiences.. I said ," Wormholes", that"s what Danny wrote to me about 4 hrs before.. So I took out his letter for the day and there it was," Wormholes" A few seconds latter I hear on the TV, "WormHoles".. Just like Danny said I would.. I know this proves nothing, but I don't believe in coincidence..

I too have seen death as terrible emptyness. Since I have been searching more for myself. Who I will be is the question that lifts me up. We will be in spirit form way longer that physical form. The IONS site has helped me with my search for me. Rearch yes, but rearch inside yourself. Become more than you are. I feel my goal is mentioned by my username. I want to be a protector of all I can. Make sure that all that can be good will be good.
When I look inside myself, I find that I'm doing everything possible to meet my goal and that is where I'll be after death.

FS,

Have you ever looked at the web site for The Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia.

http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/psychiatry/sections/cspp/dops

This is the org that Jim Tucker heads up.

More great info found there.

Another great reincarnation video by Dr Jim Tucker. http://vimeo.com/1451665

Heres some fascinating evidence by Dr Ian Stevenson where he presents cases of children who claim to remember previous lives
and cases of Birth marks/defects linked to a persons previous life's death wounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbWMEWubrk0

Fallensoul, I guess I had the idea that all reincarnated people get those memories from previous family members kind of like Assassins creed. But now I've seen people that have never been related anywhere close to assuming a biological connection, thanks again.

Really must reiterate that Victor Zammits afterlife Friday report is a great resource for afterlife information. His latest report (week5a) has a segment on precognition by Dr Gary Schwartz and a segment on after death communication. Fantastic resource.

Scott: Great post. In the spirit of "honest inquiry" *grin* why not open a thread discussing some of your realizations from your past lives. We would love you hear them, inquire and learn.

Saoirse: Why not start another thread discussion on this point of how being a scientist doesn't equal being a good control maker, and some of the issues in this area.

F_Alexander: Great analogy with the radio.

Thedeafening: Reincarnation directly challenges this idea.

Hello this is my reality and i can only speak for myself. I have seen many of my past lives and sometimes the visions are so real. I have not just had visions of past lives but story's about those lives that seem to co-inside with events in my life here again in this life. I know who i was before without a dough. The learning experiences that i have had in my past lives has tough me to Love unconditionally in every aspect of LIFE. because LIFE is to learn to love purely and wholly without anger. A life without Anger WOW! what a concept. If you can understand your visions about who you where in the past there is only one way thing to determine from that experience is that you where there. When you see more to a life the more you learn to love one another.

Hmm. Looking back at that, it seems that posting when I'm in a hurry makes me sound rather abrupt and dismissive. I wasn't meaning to be -- I was just short on time!

To be honest, I'm not impressed by Windbridge. There are big issues with their studies, but since their use of "blinding" has been mentioned, I think it's important to note that (as they admit on their website) there is "no correlation" between their definition of the term and the definition used in standard research, so a person would have to examine the method for the individual studies to be sure of their controls.

Using the model of the brain as simply a mechanism for the consciousness to work through is a good way to conceptualize the matter. In this model, abnormalities of the physical systems inhibit one's capacity to express their full self through said hardware, but it is only hardware nonetheless. The core "us" will shed the physical body just as we shed the quantum body, fully living out our accumulated patterns of vibration which could not fully exhaust themselves through those denser vehicles, until its time to do it all over again :)

It's like a radio set. You'd be hard pressed to find where Led Zepplin is in the radio, and if the radio dies that isn't the death of the signal. And if your radio has defective pieces then your song is going to come out garbled.

There are a few theories in science today that accepts that consciousness survives death. But these theories ask how long, the conscious battery is the idea that the spirit can survive because it used the body to stay alive and will drain slowly after death. Does anyone have anything can challenge this idea?

Great resource here: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/09/better-evidence.html

The oldman: That was a great experience you had. Thank you for sharing that.

Regarding the fear of death. It's comforting to know that we to not cease to exist at the time of leaving the body, but its equally important to know what happens after death. The vedic version says that just as one continuously changes ones body, even in this life, from boyhood to youth to old-age, similarly at death one changes into another body. A sober person is not disturbed by such a change.

Depending on ones state of consciousness or desires, one gets the corresponding result in line with our past karma (actions) good or bad. Our desires at the time of death, in general, are that thing(s) that we have absorbed our consciousness the most throughout our lives. Those deep impressions come out at the time of death and we think of that and our next body is chosen based on that. The results of our karma, good or bad action is then calculated and this maps out, in general, to a certain amount of suffering and happiness in the next life which details in particular circumstances or situations we have to face in the next life. We have the free will to decide how to act right now and thus incur karmic good or bad reactions and the resultant destiny is handed back to us in the future. As you sow, so shall you reap.

Based on these laws of karma and reincarnation, we are the responsible party. If our actions are pure in nature, pious and for the benefit of others, we ascend to a higher realm within the material universe. To a heavenly place to enjoy. And the opposite is also true, if our lives is filled with violence against others, we descend to the nether worlds to pay off our karmic debt. While we are in the heavenly or hellish worlds we simply spend our karmic credit or debit and no further karma is created. But once our karma is paid off, either good or bad, we take birth again in the earthly realm, where actions here determine our future live higher or lower. And the cycle continues. All the while we cycle through various different types of bodies with varied experiences in an attempt to enjoy this world.

We are not born equal. There is a difference between a child born to become a wealthy man and a child who may not live to see 2 years of age. Why the difference? Who is to blame? Even a hardened criminal may by various means escape the noose of the government and live a life of full opulence. Why is that good things happen to bad people? Does a convicted rapist who gets out scott free and lives a great life -- is our destination the same as his? These things are to be considered.

So it is a fact that consciousness survives the death of the body -- but thats only part of the story, the result after death is determined by our actions the corresponding fear of death is warranted based on that. But more importantly is there a way to get out of this cycle of death and rebirth and karma altogether??

Strangely enough when I was about 8 or 9 I did wonder if i'd had a past life, and since I was about 6 or 7 i was terrified of existenial annihilation. I'm ok now, but at that age I was terrified of the human skull and avoided any site of it that I could. I'm wondering if this could be from a previous life because I doubt many 6 or 7 year old children would be pathalogically afraid of skulls and death

The point in our life where the frequency of information is highest regarding our future life (reincarnation) is towards the end of our days. A few years ago PBS had a 3 part dream series 'The Power of Dreams' on TV. One of the dreams retold by an elderly woman on it told of her being in the womb prior to her birth (by analogy). If you want to read a number of examples of similar 'proofs' read "Reincarnation: The Scientific Evidence is Building". (Available as an ebook). If you want to know about a previous life then get into them via past life regressions, or ask preschool children what they can recall of their past life (from dreams). Many can tell you numerous incidents in their lives.

@TheOldMan Just curious, you mentioned "the blue star" in your profil. Are you pointing at the "Blue Kachina Prophecy" of the Hopi indians there ? Just curious, because not many out there 'dive' into the indian "wheel of medicine", most have not even heard about it.

Belief is a symptom of not knowing and faith is the medicine we take to rationalize it. Experience is the shedding of preconceived belief systems, realized in your experience or glimpse of the fabric of creation, where you continue beyond the reaches of science and religion.
The greatest mystery of human consciousness is also the basis of all philosophy and religion. IS THERE CONSCIOUSNESS BEYOND DEATH. Every culture on the surface of this planet, back to the ancient cave paintings of Northern France, inscribed their perception of this question! At the age of 17 I was driving to a remote logging camp in the winter. The day was one of those magical snow falls, with large slow moving puffy snowflakes; the road I was on was not much more than a single lane logging road with about 7 inches of the fresh fluffy snow ahead with no tracks. I turned a corner and ahead of me was a group of people - Natives - men, women and children, three dogs that looked like huskies, each with a yoke style sled pulling supplies. I stopped the car, shut of the engine and gazed through my windshield. The group was crossing the road in front of me, gracefully moving as one group, they slowed and looked in my direction, then turned together and moved off into the forest. I was Irish borne and in awe - I never thought Indians were still out here living as they had before Europeans arrived. I got out of the car and walked up to the point they had crossed the road, and stood there as they faded into the snowy distance. The last of the group turned and looked at me one more time and then he too faded into the background of snow. I was dumbfounded - alone - and the world seemed to have stopped turning. It was then I looked down and saw my foot prints from my car - they were the only tracks on the undisturbed pure blanket of snow. I thought I was stunned by the previous revelation of Natives in the wilderness - but now something else arrived in my consciousness. I felt a very deep sense of calm - and through this observation - a realization and removal of primal fear - of death. How odd the gift of life for some can only be realized in death - and for me the greatest question of humanity had been answered with and affirmative yes. Consciousness continues - not the question - and life seems so much more. I learned in that moment of EXPERIENCE the origin of all religions, philosophy, and the mechanics of gross political manipulation of the people on this planet - through the imposition of "THE LIE" by church and state concerning - THE FEAR OF DEATH. You have heard of the book and movie called the Secret - well it would have been better if we called it "The Lie." Blessings - each step a heart beat, each breath a prayer - for Peace in a world where we respect all life and do no harm. - Eamonn

Very well said, Charliet !! I would sign that.

Science needs to re-think itself. When man first began to look at the world and science came to be the guide by which it was all measured, it worked, very well as a matter of fact. But we have moved on from why does an apple fall, past the world being the center of the universe and beyond. Look at where we are now. Unbelievable! But all these things are measurable and can be seen, heard and sometimes touched. Science has been trying to figure out man since it's inception as the be all and end all way to find answers, but it has failed. Sure, we know how the body works, cells, molecules etc. But we can't cure or stop cancer, we are still finding things that cause it. We can't figure out if man has a soul or if there is life after death, we can't prove the existance of a God. Not with science atleast. Those of us who dare to wonder and poke and prod have noticed things that occur all the time, are repeatble and defy explanation, other than they are other worldly if you will, but they are of this world and of us. Because science cannot put it in a bottle it is deemed nonsense. Logic tells us that there is something there and that something is happening, it is undeniable. Science needs to find it's inner child, to wonder why, to dream, to speculate, to say "there is something here, and I must find it", We need to evolve science to a higher level, never forget what you have learned, always be willing to dream, wonder, poke and prod, as Spock would say, "it is logical".

Hi Husnisse

I would like to comment on your last line before answering your question. "Because this is science. The rest is still belief...."

One has to be very very careful to say that the modern science through research, experimentation, rigorous method etc. is the only way to establish fact and that everything else is a belief. Modern scientists depend upon gross sense data to obtain information about reality. But our gross senses of seeing, hearing, touching, etc are quite limited and imperfect. We are also subject to get things wrong, to make mistakes and also to be illusioned. So scientific facts are certainly subject to many imperfections that if you place your belief in, you may well be misdirected.

When modern scientists with imperfect senses tries to acquire knowledge and says "This is now a fact". At some point later, it may well change and the rigorous method may prove truthful only after we're dead and long gone. All the while we've been believing the current scientific facts until science can prove something with rigorous studies I shall accept it as a fact. It places one is a very narrow box. There are other methods of establishing facts about reality that one can build upon and one should try to be open to these with an inquisitive mind. You can make more speedy progress in understanding reality while you're in this life and through your own study of higher knowledge, personal experimentation, common sense logic and reason which will enable to you realize facts far beyond what current modern science is presenting. IONS is presenting some of these cutting edge ideas.

We should note that everything in one sense is belief. Justified belief. You can't say that science is 100% correct. We believe that the scientific authorities are conducting the experiments correctly and we have faith that what they are presenting to us is "good science".We have never personally seen a man on the moon, but we believe that scientists have gone there. Practically all the experiments science has done, we have not personally seen them, but we accept on faith that they are not cheating us -- but actually they may well be cheating us by saying that only our scientific facts IS reality. IONS recognizes that actually there is quite a large bias in the scientific community, even if rigourous scientific data is presented, it is rejected if is not in line with current scientific ideas.

So when it comes down to these ultimate questions of life, like how we came to exist and is there a soul or life after death, modern science doesn't like to admit that it doesn't know very much -- and yet makes elaborate often contradicting theories that require huge leaps of faith to accept. So we're not getting the whole picture and one should explore other forms of knowledge to get a better understanding of reality in this short life.

Yet even if we have to limit ourselves to rigorous scientific fact, to answer your question you can take a look at Ian stevesons and his contemporaries research on reincarnation. Where physical birth marks are the same as death wounds by someone who provides detailed facts that are verified to be true about his previous life. Young children providing facts about their previous life. Near death experiences and other things like the Afterlife experiments. I'm sure others can cite their research and sources for scientific life after death.

Regarding the knowledge I cite. It is not considered imperfect knowledge. It is considered perfect knowledge coming from a perfect source or God. That is the best way to understand reality by learning from that type of knowledge, because it is not subject to change - past, present or future. The knowledge is the same throughout. The research is already done. One simply has to learn from a teacher and move ahead. Now one may be skeptic about this as a source of knowledge, but those who have sincerely gave it a try can appreciate this knowledge is practical and true.

It is not that one simply has to accept this knowledge blindly. Using all your sense perception and logic you can realize the facts as given by higher knowledge. Perform the scientific method on yourself. One can observe that the body is changing over time. We are reincarnating even in this body. As a young child I am still the same person even though my body has changed completely and all the cells in my body are different. So if everything material has changed in my body and im still the same person, then who am i and what is my nature? If a blind from birth person can come to see himself for the first time, from outside his body that means that he is not that body and there are senses outside of the senses of the body.

It is so unfortunate that modern scientific method limits us so much. The facts that we inhabit this machine of a body and that the consciousness continues after death is the basic steps in spiritual life, there is alot more to it, but we're stuck into thinking, we must have scientific facts, and the result is that we suffer due to ignorance. Even with all the scientific facts, still there are no answers to the why and people are no more happier than before so what is the point of so much scientific advancement?

Ian stevenson and Jim Tucker have 2500 individual cases which are growing steadily, the windbridge institute conducts mediumship experiments that are quintuple blinded; google windbridge institute to find out more, I can't prove the soul but I'm told a book called the irreducible mind puts forward a good case that conciousness is not localised to the brain

What you cite is a kind of knowledge that has been collected on different occasions by different persons. But do you know of any experiment prooving the existence of soul? On a scientific base I mean, something reproductible with a rigourous method and significant results? And is there any scientific way of prooving that we reincarnate? I mean, except from the Dalai Lama who seems to have full control and tell where and how he will reincarnate, who else can say that he will reincarnate in this and that, and actually do it in a way which can be controlled?
Because this is science. The rest is still belief...

I have just purchased and am currently reading Jim tucker's book 'life before life' it seems to me that these cases woud validate the NDE and mediumship studies, I still have some doubts and skepticism then again I'm only human

A few weeks ago I had an epiphany. The pain of thinking of eternity was just too much. Then, in a flash I understood WHY I did not understand...

The brain is a temporal device (time machine). Using this hardware, it's impossible to comprehend "timelessness" or eternity. This is one of the greatest sources of pain in people like us who seek to know the Great Truths. How can God have always been? We don't understand because we are using our brain (limited hardware) to understand the Great Mysteries. It's like trying to use a 1950's radio in an attempt to view a blu-ray disc. Because of this (conscious mind limitation) our only recourse is to collect observations from the non temporal part of our mind - the subconscious.

The idea is that this material universe may be 15 billions years, but consciousness is not material in nature and therefore not limited to the creation of this universe. It is of a different nature that is beyond the purview of our material faculties. The vedic knowledge tells us that there never was a time when we did not exist nor in the future shall we cease to exist. So consciousness is eternal and individual and not created as material things are. When one understands that I am separate from the body and then one opens the door to spiritual life.

You can appreciate this fact in many ways, from your own introspection. e.g. Am I the hand or the owner of the hand? Am I the eyes or the person seeing through the eyes. You can also appreciate this by seeing that the body is changing over time. We're reincarnating even in this body. The body we had as babies is different than the bodies we have now. Every 7 seven years all the cells in our body changes, a new body, but I am the same person experiencing life through these changes. Therefore I am separate from the body. So consciousness cannot be finished by the death of the body or the death of the universe

You can read this nice article here by Pim van lommel:
Here's the intro:

"First I want to discuss death. ...Most of us believe that death is the end of our existence; we believe that it is the end of everything we are. We believe that the death of our body is the end of our identity, the end of our thoughts and memories, that it is the end of our consciousness. Do we have to change our concepts about death, not only based on what has been thought and written about death in human history around the world in many cultures, in many religions, and in all times, but also based on insights from recent scientific research on NDE?

What happens when I am dead? What is death? During our life 500000 cells die each second, each day about 50 billion cells in our body are replaced, resulting in a new body each year. So cell death is totally different from body death when you eventually die. During our life our body changes continuously, each day, each minute, each second. Each year about 98% of our molecules and atoms in our body have been replaced. Each living being is in an unstable balance of two opposing processes of continual disintegration and integration. But no one realizes this constant change. And from where comes the continuity of our continually changing body? Cells are just the building blocks of our body, like the bricks of a house, but who is the architect, who coordinates the building of this house. When someone has died, only mortal remains are left: only matter. But where is the director of the body? What about our consciousness when we die? Is someone his body, or do we “have” a body?"

http://www.iands.org/research/important_studies/dr._pim_van_lommel_m.d._continuity_of_consciousness.html

I could argue that I didn't exist 15 billion years before my birth, but as the evidence for reincarnation suggests I have probably have had numerous past lives

Looks like Fallensoul pointed out much of what I would have said. There really is a lot of empirical evidence starting to point in the right direction to support the idea that life does go on. Some of that can be found by reading through this site.

Also, you can look at the above loss of memory from another angle too. Many people ask "if I really lived before and/or if reincarnation is true, why can't I remember it?" Well, hardly any of us remember the first few years of our life, but we were alive and we were conscious. Hardly any of us remember most of the night while we were asleep. But, if you hook up some instruments to a sleeping person, his brain is plenty of active. We dream for a significant portion of the night (i.e. have some level of consciousness) yet we don't always remember.

So, memory doesn't necessarily equal being ;-)

thank-you so much for helping me out, I really appreciate it

Practically all levels of knowledge point to this fact.

The scientific research:
(1) Near Death experiences: www.nderf.org. The movie The Day I Died, some videos on youtube. Most striking evidence of NDE was completely blind people from birth able to come out of their bodies and see their own bodies was clear evidence that we have senses apart from the senses of the body and that the body actually limits our sense perception.

(2) Reincarnation evidence: Ian stevensons books are astounding, his lecture video summarises it all: http://www.virginia.edu/uvanewsmakers/video/stevenson.ram. Most striking are children remembering their past lives and the death wounds of a person carries forward to the next body as birthmarks.

(3) www.victorzammit.com has such a huge collection of experiences and cases for the afterlife.

Ancient wisdom: The Bhagavad Gita and all other eastern and western spiritual movements alike accept we're not just material entities. The body is simply a vehicle for the soul. Just as one throws away old clothes and puts on new ones, similarly the soul takes on new bodies when it has to give up the old or useless one. This is the basic ABC of spiritual knowledge.

Regarding why people are mentally ill. The mind is the interface for the consciousness, just like the keyboard is an interface to the computer. If some of the keys on the keyboard are damaged it is not that the person using the keyboard is faulty but the interface prevents the person from interacting with the computer properly. Similarly if there is some problem with the brain then the consciousness cannot interact with the body and world properly. That doesnt mean that the consciousness is faulty, but the interface prevents the pure consciousness from fully expressing itself.

Drinking again affects the processes in the brain and this will prevent the consciousness from interacting properly with the body. Like the monitor screen becoming hazy. Its not the person seeing the monitor screen thats faulty but if by drinking the "screen of our mind" becomes hazy that prevents the person from interacting with the "monitor of the body and world" effectively.

There are different states of consciousness and this includes dreaming, sleep and deep sleep.

Marcus there is life after death as the people on this forum will surely help you discover. And besides that being spiritual in nature means theres a whole spiritual reality outside of this one that you can realize through various means. Simply it requires a little sincerity, devotion and higher knowledge like the Bhagavad Gita or other types of yoga or knowledge. Start your spiritual journey and be happy. Good luck.